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Why Don't Christians ever present any evidence?

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Jun, 2007 08:16 am
neologist wrote:
That the Babylonians cherished their ziggurats is well established; as is the outcome of Isaiah's prophecy for Babylon's total destruction recorded in Isaiah chapter 13.

No doubt, anyone reading Isaiah's words during the height of Babylon's power would have laughed at the idea that such a great city could become a permanent wasteland.

But hey, Strike3, I'm glad you got there before the city went down, 'cause now it's nothing but a great pit.


Oh fer chrissake, how many times do you have to have it pointed out to you that the alleged prophecty of Isaiah only works out by seriously distorting the meanings of the words and the historical record.

I would think that things like this would embarrass you after a while.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Jun, 2007 09:35 am
Setanta wrote:
neologist wrote:
That the Babylonians cherished their ziggurats is well established; as is the outcome of Isaiah's prophecy for Babylon's total destruction recorded in Isaiah chapter 13.

No doubt, anyone reading Isaiah's words during the height of Babylon's power would have laughed at the idea that such a great city could become a permanent wasteland.

But hey, Strike3, I'm glad you got there before the city went down, 'cause now it's nothing but a great pit.


Oh fer chrissake, how many times do you have to have it pointed out to you that the alleged prophecty of Isaiah only works out by seriously distorting the meanings of the words and the historical record.

I would think that things like this would embarrass you after a while.
I'm embarrassed, alright. But that's just because you made me spill my coffee with your distorting the meanings blather.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Jun, 2007 10:09 am
I Stereo wrote:
stlstrike3 wrote:
<sigh>

I think it's time for you guys to finally know the truth.

*I* wrote the story of the Tower of Babel. I travelled back in time, and gave copies of my manuscript to several roaming merchants. This, so I could demonstrate that you shouldn't base your lives on things that someone probably just made up.

Unfortunately, the story I originally wrote did not survive the trillions of rewrites, copies, reinterpretations.... I wrote about the Great Pit of Babel... but I guess someone along the way decided that god didn't live in the ground... oh well...


sorry about that... I travelled back in time to about 200 BC and was given the job of editing. I thought a pit sounded to feminine in Greek. I was looking for somehting macho, so I took liberty to make man's creation more phallic.
So all of these steeples on churches and temples . . . that was you?
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stlstrike3
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Jun, 2007 10:13 am
neologist wrote:
I Stereo wrote:
stlstrike3 wrote:
<sigh>

I think it's time for you guys to finally know the truth.

*I* wrote the story of the Tower of Babel. I travelled back in time, and gave copies of my manuscript to several roaming merchants. This, so I could demonstrate that you shouldn't base your lives on things that someone probably just made up.

Unfortunately, the story I originally wrote did not survive the trillions of rewrites, copies, reinterpretations.... I wrote about the Great Pit of Babel... but I guess someone along the way decided that god didn't live in the ground... oh well...


sorry about that... I travelled back in time to about 200 BC and was given the job of editing. I thought a pit sounded to feminine in Greek. I was looking for somehting macho, so I took liberty to make man's creation more phallic.
So all of these steeples on churches and temples . . . that was you?


I think it's a shame that someone didn't wait until the 20th century to make up the whole Christ story.... then we could wear little electric chairs around our necks instead. Smile
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Jun, 2007 11:16 am
stlstrike3 wrote:
I think it's a shame that someone didn't wait until the 20th century to make up the whole Christ story.... then we could wear little electric chairs around our necks instead. Smile
Or wrap little IVs around our necks.

Yes, I find it preposterous that one who professes love for Jesus would wear the instrument of his execution around his/her neck. But, of course, Jesus was impaled upon a stake (Gr. stauros), and the cross is just another phallic symbol, as is the steeple.

Just what are them folks a worshippin' anyways?
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Jun, 2007 11:37 am
neologist wrote:
I'm embarrassed, alright. But that's just because you made me spill my coffee with your distorting the meanings blather.


It's not blather. The area around Babylon was a desert, although not a wasteland, except in so far as it was carefully irrigated on a schedule established by the Semitic priesthoods of the temple societies before your boy Abraham even appears on the scene. As long as the irrigation system was maintained, which is to say that as long as Babylon remained the center of a temple society, the desert were fields. Babylon was only abandoned gradually, as the political realities of the Medean, then Persian, then Greco-Macedonian "empires" and petty kingdoms played themselves out.

But calling a desert a "wasteland" only applies insofar as someone fails to recognize that deserts have many lives of their own, whether or not attractive to settled agriculturalists. It is a gross distortion to refer to the area where Babylon once stood as a "wasteland" just because some of it (and by no means all) has returned to the desert from which it was originally taken.

It is also a distortion of history to say that Babylon was destroyed. It faded away, it was a case of Elliot's "not with a bang but a whimper." Predicting the decline of any city is not a great act of prophecy--wait around long enough and all of them will be gone. If you have bigotry partial to an idiotic contention that your imaginary friend off in the sky somewhere wants all the earth to be farmed, and any land which is not farmed to be considered barren ground, it is easy to pervert abandonment into a description of "wasteland."

Allegations of prophecy are just about the most hilarious, and pathetic, "proofs" to be found in the quiver of the religionists. They only hit the target on their slow, erratic flights because the religionists frantically move the target around until it's in front of the arrow.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Jun, 2007 11:40 am
Babylon is either in existence or it is not. The fact that it's decline was slow does not diminish Isaiah's prophecy. Rather, it shows that the words were not added at a later date.

It's decline also is representative of the Decline of Babylon the Great, as noted in the book of Revelation.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Jun, 2007 12:00 pm
You might as well drag Jeremiah into it, as well.

Isaiah, 13:19: (in the King James Version)

And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

The point about the slow decline of Babylon is that Isaiah is claiming that Babylon will be overthrown as were Sodom and Gommorrah. There was no instance of Babylon being destroyed in a great fire raining down from the heavens. More important than that, however is the 14th Chapter of Isaiah:

14:1 & 2: (in the King James Version)

1 For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.

2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.


Babylon was not conquered by the Jews, and the population of the city into slavery in Palestine. Isaiah's alleged prophecy only stands by ignoring the full details of the text, ignoring the context and ignoring the history of the city of Babylon. What you've got is a bitter old, wild-eyed Jew, undoubtedly spraying his audience with spittle in the frenzy of his rant, raging against the captivity which he was powerless to remedy.

Pretty damned sad that any rational person in this day and age would lend it credence out of desperation to claim that his favorite scriptural bigotry is inerrant because divinely inspired.

You also ignore that in rabbinical writings, "Babylon the Great" is a metaphorical term for the dispersion of the Jews.

Finally, Isaiah, if he is not the figment of someone's overwrought imagination, would have lived in the mid-eighth century BCE. The Pentateuch is known to have been revised after the Persians allowed the Jews to return to Palestine, more than two hundred years later. So how do you know that the text was not altered by a resentful set of Jewish scribes eager to see the "Chaldees" brought low by their new Persian masters? Textual integrity is one of the worst bases upon which to make claims about scripture, because absolute on texts survive from that era.

You have no case. I also have no doubt that mere facts and rational consideration won't ever enter into your desperate need to believe your scripture is inerrant.
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xingu
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Jun, 2007 12:01 pm
bm
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Jun, 2007 01:41 pm
Set. Yer my favorite atheist because you seem to be one of the few who actually has a brain. But on this point you are grabbing at the wind. Say it is just a coincidence, if that is what you mean, but the prophecy and its fulfillment are in line. The end result of Sodom and Gomorrah is that they are currently uninhabited as is Babylon. The time span and method of destruction is irrelevant. The texts could not have been altered to fit the fulfilment of the prophecy until well into the common era, which is more than just a little bit unlikely.

The reference to Babylon the Great in the book of Revelation is to the religious beliefs of ancient Babylon, such as trinity, immortal soul, and the use of images, etc., still very much a part of the world's religions.

The time of the revision of the pentateuch is one of the reasons I avoid mentioning other parts of Isaiah's prophecy, such as the role of Cyrus.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Jun, 2007 03:06 pm
Dance, dance, dance, Neo. The so-called prophecy specified that Babylon would be overwhelmed as were Sodom and Gommorrah. It wasn't. The so-called prophecy told the Jews that they would conquer Babylon, and take their former oppressors home with them to be servants to them in their homes. They didn't.

Score: Reality 1, Isaiah 0.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Jun, 2007 03:21 pm
Speed notwithstanding, the result to Babylon is the same as the result to Sodom and Gomorrah. The fact that the remainder of the prophecy has not yet been fulfilled or may have been fulfilled in another way, as for the spiritual Jews under the New Covenant, is another matter.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Jun, 2007 03:23 pm
So you are suggesting that the Jews may yet conquer Babylon and take the residents to be slaves in their homes? Rather hard to do if Babylon has already been destroyed.

Of course, logic is never a strong suit with in exegesis.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Jun, 2007 03:27 pm
By the way, the result was not the same for Babylon as for Sodom and Gommorrah. Those two cities were ostensibly destroyed with their populations in situ. The same did not happen to Babylon--which is what Isaiah "prophesied," which is why it provides just another example of how much horsiepoop religionists are willing to swallow in the ludicrous attempt to "prove" the inerrancy of the Bobble.

It's not just that you haven't been able to prove that Isaiah's "prophecy" was fulfilled--the failure constitutes evidence that the Bobble is not inerrant.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Jun, 2007 03:38 pm
Setanta wrote:
So you are suggesting that the Jews may yet conquer Babylon and take the residents to be slaves in their homes? Rather hard to do if Babylon has already been destroyed.

Of course, logic is never a strong suit with in exegesis.
Babylon the Great still exists.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Jun, 2007 03:51 pm
In your fevered imagination, yes, i'm sure it does.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Jun, 2007 03:54 pm
Setanta wrote:
In your fevered imagination, yes, i'm sure it does.
Well, yeah, but you know me. I take the book of Revelation seriously.
I'm hopeless.
What can I say?
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Jun, 2007 11:15 am
Setanta wrote:
Dance, dance, dance, Neo. The so-called prophecy specified that Babylon would be overwhelmed as were Sodom and Gommorrah. It wasn't. The so-called prophecy told the Jews that they would conquer Babylon, and take their former oppressors home with them to be servants to them in their homes. They didn't.

Score: Reality 1, Isaiah 0.
Actually, when they were released to return and rebuild Jeruslaem, they did bring along some of their former captives as servants. That was what we were talking about wasn't it?

Sorry for the delay. I don't have this discussion bookmarked and had forgotten about it.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Jun, 2007 11:35 am
No, it's not what we were discussing, and i frankly don't believe you have a reliable source to sustain Isaiah's claim that they would make servants of their oppressors. If they did bring any "Chaldees" back as slaves, which i doubt, it certainly would not have been any of the powerful such as those whom Tiglath Pileser had sent to round them up in the first place (Tiglath Pileser is he whom the Bobble inaccurately refers to as "Pul").
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Jun, 2007 12:33 pm
Setanta wrote:
No, it's not what we were discussing, and i frankly don't believe you have a reliable source to sustain Isaiah's claim that they would make servants of their oppressors. If they did bring any "Chaldees" back as slaves, which i doubt, it certainly would not have been any of the powerful such as those whom Tiglath Pileser had sent to round them up in the first place (Tiglath Pileser is he whom the Bobble inaccurately refers to as "Pul").
I'll have to get back to you on this. Obviously things changed after Cyrus conquered Babylon and those who were formerly powerful were probably brought down. But I know that assertion is probably not sufficient.

So, Later
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