Why are better educated people less religious?

Okay, neo. I'm exhausted. You win.

0 Replies

echi wrote:

Okay, neo. I'm exhausted. You win.

I wasn't expecting to win a convert, merely explain why I do what I do.

0 Replies

But you didn't explain why you have arrived at the religious devotion you profess. Your "explanation" assumes that a god exists, and you have not explained how you arrived at that belief; and, it assumes that that god is made manifest in Judeo-Christian scripture, and you have not explained how you arrived at that belief.

0 Replies

Setanta wrote:

But you didn't explain why you have arrived at the religious devotion you profess. Your "explanation" assumes that a god exists, and you have not explained how you arrived at that belief; and, it assumes that that god is made manifest in Judeo-Christian scripture, and you have not explained how you arrived at that belief.

By researching satisfactory answers to questions like:

If God exists, then how are the apparent inconsistencies in the bible explained?

If God exists, then why has he allowed evil?

If God exists, then why have the clergy misrepresented him?

If God exists, then what is his purpose for the earth and how will it be fulfilled?

If God exists, then what happens when you die?

If God exists, then what is the kingdom about?

If God exists, then how may faith in God make your life better?

If God exists, then where and how may I learn about him?

etc.

It doesn't happen overnight.

0 Replies

neologist wrote:

By researching satisfactory answers to questions like:

If God exists, then how are the apparent inconsistencies in the bible explained?

This is no answer--why do you assume at the outset that a deity exists? If for sake of a thought experiment, why do you assume that one particular sciptural canon out of the literally hundreds which have been written is any more compelling than any other? In short, you have sidestepped the point i made when i wrote: it assumes that that god is made manifest in Judeo-Christian scripture, and you have not explained how you arrived at that belief.

Quote:

If God exists, then why has he allowed evil?

This assumes that your deity is male. This begs the question of whether or not there actually is such a thing as evil, and in what it consists.

Quote:

If God exists, then why have the clergy misrepresented him?

This assumes that your deity is male (this is not to suggest that your deity is necessarily female--but it does question why it were appropriate to assign a gender identity to your god). This assume that "the clergy" have misrepresented that deity. Which clergy? When and where have clergy misrepresented him? Do you assert that all clergy at all times have misrepresented the putative diety? If so, then you have again begged a question, because you have assumed the nature of the deity without providing the evidence for your assumptions, and determined that all clergy at all times and in all places have misrepresented this deity. In fact, you are parroting a concept of the theological canon you have determined you wish to adhere to.

Quote:

If God exists, then what is his purpose for the earth and how will it be fulfilled?

This assumes one of the most childish of human conceits, which is that there were a purpose for this planet and the life upon it. This begs another question, in that it assumes a special relationship between the deity and humanity.

Quote:

If God exists, then what happens when you die?

The best information which i have is that your body rots, and you show no further signs of sentience. Nevertheless, this is a completely meaningless question with regard to whether or not a deity exists, and only has meaning if one begs several questions, such as that there were any special relationship between the deity and humanity, and whether or not an "afterlife" were possible and/or plausible.

Quote:

If God exists, then what is the kingdom about?

What kingdom? This once again begs questions by making a theological assumption based upon scriptural particularism.

Quote:

If God exists, then how may faith in God make your life better?

This question assumes that if there were a deity, said deity would care whether or not you have "faith" in said deity's existence. This is once again, although more general than your earlier sallies, entails a theologically particularist point of view. As is the case with most of your thesis here, it does not concern itself with an explanation of why you believe that a deity exists.

Quote:

If God exists, then where and how may I learn about him?

etc.

It doesn't happen overnight.

No, it takes a long time to get anywhere with any question when you so consistently beg the basic question, and clutter it up with a detailed series of begged questions.

None of your response provides any explanation of why you believe that a deity exists. Very little of your response actually addresses the subject of why one would believe that a deity exists.

0 Replies

So what if I refer to God as male? Did you think I was referring to some physical characteristics? Or God's purported position as sovereign of the universe?

And you missed my point:

I simply stated the course I pursued while trying to explain or deny the existence of God TO ME. And I believe I made it clear that others would likely have to follow a similar course.

You agree with the bible about the condition of the dead, but missed the point I have repeatedly made about the clergy's reliance on belief in an afterlife in order to maintain power.

0 Replies

One again, you fail to answer the core question, and in fact, to beg the core question in your response.

Why do you assume that a deity exists? References to any particular scriptural canon does not constitute an answer, it simply demonstrates your prejudicial preference for that particular scriptural canon, and inferentially provides evidence that you assume the existence of the deity, while failing to provide any justification for that belief.

The reason to point out that you have described your god as male is to underline the point that you are assuming in advance that said deity exists, and has certain characteristics, such as "sovereign of the universe." Echi's question was much simpler than that--he simply wanted to know if you could explain why you believe that there is a deity.

Quote:

I simply stated the course I pursued while trying to explain or deny the existence of God TO ME. And I believe I made it clear that others would likely have to follow a similar course.

No, you have given absolutely no explanation for why you believe that there is a deity. And now you want to claim that you have some sort of fool-proof procedure which would lead anyone else to the same conclusion. The "course" you have outlined begs the question of whether or not there is a deity, and what the nature of said deity is.

I haven't missed your point. You did not initially state that clergy trade upon people's fear of an unpleasant afterlife in order to achieve and maintain an ascendancy over them. This leads me right back to my previous questions, with one slight refinement. Do you assert that all clergy at all times and in all places use fear of an unpleasant afterlife to achieve and maintain an ascendancy over others?

You are peddling your particular theology, and adding to it a conceit that it is comprehensive and superior to any other theology which might be advanced.

You have utterly failed to provide a plausible explanation for your belief that there is a deity. All you explain is why you subscribe to the particular Judeo-Christian inspired theology which you prefer.

0 Replies

Setanta wrote:

One again, you fail . . . fail . . . fail . . . utterly failed to provide a plausible explanation for your belief that there is a deity. All you explain is why you subscribe to the particular Judeo-Christian inspired theology which you prefer.

That is all I could have hoped, I suppose.

With a disclaimer over the word 'prefer'

0 Replies

It's a low trick to alter someone's post in order to create a false impression of what that individual has written.

Perhaps you can explain why you object to the word "prefer."

0 Replies

neologist wrote:

Setanta wrote:
But you didn't explain why you have arrived at the religious devotion you profess. Your "explanation" assumes that a god exists, and you have not explained how you arrived at that belief; and, it assumes that that god is made manifest in Judeo-Christian scripture, and you have not explained how you arrived at that belief.
By researching satisfactory answers to questions like:

If God exists, then how are the apparent inconsistencies in the bible explained?
If God exists, then why has he allowed evil?
If God exists, then why have the clergy misrepresented him?
If God exists, then what is his purpose for the earth and how will it be fulfilled?
If God exists, then what happens when you die?
If God exists, then what is the kingdom about?
If God exists, then how may faith in God make your life better?
If God exists, then where and how may I learn about him?
etc.

It doesn't happen overnight.

In true religious zealot form, you have cast logic and reason aside. Your questions have absolutely nothing to do with the existence of God. I'd be curious as to your answers. Allow me to give you mine.

If God doesn't exists, then how are the apparent inconsistencies in the bible explained?

Because the bible is a sloppily assembled text that was written by a bunch of superstitious individuals, and launched into the mainstream when Emperor Constantine bought into the whole Christian cult thing.

If God doesn't exists, then why has he allowed evil?

Assuming by evil you mean "bad things", what's wrong with, oh, say, "**** happens?"

If God doesn't exists, then why have the clergy misrepresented "god"?

Because that's what happens when you try to understand the motivations of someone who does not exist.

If God doesn't exists, then what is the purpose for the earth and how will it be fulfilled?

How about.... there is no purpose? We are responsible for our own.

If God doesn't exists, then what happens when you die?

I suppose that depends on where you make arrangements to have your remains placed.

If God doesn't exists, then what is the kingdom about?

Um... what the hell is the "kingdom"? Last I checked, most of us are not being ruled.

If God doesn't exists, then how may faith in God make your life better?

Um... can anyone say, placebo effect?

If God doesn't exists, then where and how may I learn about him?

Depends on which god and which religion you are talking about. You have thousands to choose from.... but that's assuming that truth and reason aren't palatable to you.

0 Replies

Setanta wrote:

It's a low trick to alter someone's post in order to create a false impression of what that individual has written.

Perhaps you can explain why you object to the word "prefer."

Sorry, Set. I was just looking for comic relief.

I've said often that I don't base my faith on personal preference. I realize that may be hard to articulate, but it's true.

0 Replies

Saying it doesn't make it so. You display a preference for a belief that there is a deity, without providing your reason for believing as much--so it appears to be nothing more than a preference, unless and until you provide plausible evidence for your belief.

You also display a preference for Christian scripture. I know of no other way to put that--you apparently don't give equal weight, for example, to the Quran or the Tibetan Book of the Dead.

0 Replies

stlstrike3 wrote:

. . . .In true religious zealot form, you have cast logic and reason aside. Your questions have absolutely nothing to do with the existence of God. I'd be curious as to your answers. Allow me to give you mine.

If God doesn't exists, then how are the apparent inconsistencies in the bible explained?

Because the bible is a sloppily assembled text that was written by a bunch of superstitious individuals, and launched into the mainstream when Emperor Constantine bought into the whole Christian cult thing.

You originated this thread and dropped it:
http://able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2647077#2647077

You stated your favorite - I answered it. You went out for coffee and never came back. I have asseverated that the bible itself explains its apparent contradictions and while I have failed (failed, failed, failed :wink: ) to convince any one as yet, I certainly think the bible does a good job of explaining itself.

BTW, I don't believe there is a plural for the word 'exist'.

0 Replies

Setanta wrote:

Saying it doesn't make it so. You display a preference for a belief that there is a deity, without providing your reason for believing as much--so it appears to be nothing more than a preference, unless and until you provide plausible evidence for your belief.

You also display a preference for Christian scripture. I know of no other way to put that--you apparently don't give equal weight, for example, to the Quran or the Tibetan Book of the Dead.

Only one can be right. The challenge is in finding the one.

BTW, I was perfectly happy in my former disbelief.

0 Replies

Don't worry about chopping up the quote of my post--i cannot imagine a circumstance in which i would actually be angry at you. Today i have been responding because Echi said he quits and you win, and you responded that you weren't trying to win anything, but just to provide him an explanation. This all began because you wrote:

Quote:

I believe he exists because I have put him to a personal test.

But you have been unwilling to provide Echi with sufficient information to evaluate the nature of the test to which you put the deity. You responded to the direct question by asserting that actually it were you who were tested. That's fine, as far as it goes, but it doesn't go very far. Echi basically wanted to know why you believe there is a deity, and you've mostly dodged the question by delving into your personal theology.

Of course you are not obliged to reveal anything more about the basis of your faith than you feel comfortable revealing. I have far more respect for you than i do for any other theist i've ever encountered, because of your honesty and candor in most things.

However, if it is a question of asserting that blind faith is mere credulity, but that your faith is superior to that, you must be able to understand why your refusal to provide a plausible explanation leaves one with no other choice than to lump your faith in with the credulity you have condemned in others.

0 Replies

To find out why my faith is not credulity, you would have to walk in my shoes. Well, not really as I am a poor example. All I can do is suggest that the shoes I am pointing to might provide you the answer. It's kind of like telling you that ice cream tastes good . . .

0 Replies

It's not very much like telling me that ice cream is good, at all. After all, i can go out and buy some ice cream, and decide for myself.

Of course, if you assert that God is on special at Walmart . . .

0 Replies

Setanta wrote:

It's not very much like telling me that ice cream is good, at all. After all, i can go out and buy some ice cream, and decide for myself.

Of course, if you assert that God is on special at Walmart . . .

That's it! God is on special over at my place. Or, if you'd rather, I'll come knock on your door.

BTW, what if I did knock on your door and you knew it was me?

0 Replies

If i knew it were you, i'd make some coffee, and sic the dogs on you the minute you mentioned religion. (They are, though, small dogs--more noise than harm.)

0 Replies

We would have many a yarn to spin, Set.

0 Replies

Why are better educated people less religious?

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know