Why are better educated people less religious?

echi wrote:

Steve 4100,
Okay... I concede. You are right. Atheism is the only position in accord with sound reason. My atheism does not result from insufficient evidence for the existence of god(s), but from a lack of any reason to even consider the question. It is for this reason that I cannot call myself agnostic.
Anyway, I think you and I are in agreement on this. Eh?

Well you put me on the spot here echi. If I am honest, and I try to be as I'm sure you do, I have to say "I dont know". But then all of our lives are lived in a sea of doubt. However some things we can be more sure about than others, and we come to these conclusions through observation evidence and the application of logic. Of course we dont always get it right, and many times a turn of events has caused a major pause to re consider. But at all these junctures we have never had to say "we don't know therefore the theists are right, God must have done it". There is absolutely no evidence to support the hypothesis that a Creator God exists, and even if he did, logical problems flow from that (who created the creator?). All my training and life experience leads me to the obvious conclusion wrt God...(there is an even more fundamental problem, that is defining what you mean by that word, define God and I might be able to say whether i believe he/she/it exists)...and yet when I try and think about the utter majesty of the universe as we can observe it, I am struck with awe and reverence which is the nearest i can get to being religious.

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Steve 41oo wrote:

. . . There is absolutely no evidence to support the hypothesis that a Creator God exists, and even if he did, logical problems flow from that (who created the creator?). . .

Your assertion of a first cause assumes that time is linear. I would suggest that it might not be so.

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Only poofism can support the "creator" as the primal source of all creation. No evidence, only poofism similar to "complexity of matter, therefore."

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Only poofism can support the "creator" as the primal source of all creation. No evidence, only poofism similar to "complexity of matter, therefore."

My assertion vis a vis the linearity of time does not require a creator as a first cause, my belief notwithstanding.

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Okay, if not, who/what created your god?

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Most reasonable answer: man created god(s).

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Man's god(s) does miracle, but that's poofism too. No scientific evidence of any "miracles" as described in the bible.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Okay, if not, who/what created your god?

Purely speculation on my part:

At some point in the sea of time Jehovah decided to become 'He who causes to become', the Hebrew meaning of his name. At that point, for us, at least, time became linear. His first creation, in turn, created all other things. The bible supports this assumption, I believe.

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neo, I'm not a christian, but you guys have been talking about the "Second Coming" for hundreds of years (if not over a thousand). Waiting is also linear; it never pays to believe in something without having some logic and common sense to back it in our short life-span.

What does pay is to make the best of our genes and environment to its potential; it has more logic and common sense than to wish for "life after death."

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cicerone imposter wrote:

neo, I'm not a christian, but you guys have been talking about the "Second Coming" for hundreds of years (if not over a thousand). Waiting is also linear; it never pays to believe in something without having some logic and common sense to back it in our short life-span.

What does pay is to make the best of our genes and environment to its potential; it has more logic and common sense than to wish for "life after death."

Whether or not God has delayed in righting the wrongs of Eden is not for me to judge.

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neologist wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:
Okay, if not, who/what created your god?
Purely speculation on my part:

At some point in the sea of time Jehovah decided to become 'He who causes to become', the Hebrew meaning of his name. At that point, for us, at least, time became linear. His first creation, in turn, created all other things. The bible supports this assumption, I believe.

I don't understand, neologist. Jehovah decided to become 'He who causes to become'? What caused Jehovah to decide to become?

Supposing that time is non-linear, as you suggest, perhaps Jehovah required no cause at all to account for his existence. Fine. But if this process of becoming is truly an eternal aspect of nature, then it would seem to me that any sort of a "creator" god would be irrelevant and unnecessary. He would have no place in a reality such as this.

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neologist,

You sidestep the "prime mover" argument by reference to "non-linearity of time", but presumably you hold your deity responsible for "order".
But is not "order" itself a function of "linear time" (second law of thermodynamics)? And who recognizes such "order" other than a cognate being with "language" whose categories reflect such "order" by persistence over "time" . I suggest that the ID camp has an incestuous problem with "order" "time" and "intelligence" but leaving their comfortable "bed" for the perils of the void is too disconcerting for them to contemplate.

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I was here first, smart guy.

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echi,

You make a different but equally valid point ! Smile

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Don't patronize me, fresco.

(Just kidding. I freakin' love you, man!) Crying or Very sad

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neologist wrote:

Steve 41oo wrote:
. . . There is absolutely no evidence to support the hypothesis that a Creator God exists, and even if he did, logical problems flow from that (who created the creator?). . .
Your assertion of a first cause assumes that time is linear. I would suggest that it might not be so.

Well thats an interesting philosophical question, but the hard science says it is http://einstein.stanford.edu/content/relativity/q425.html

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neologist wrote:

Purely speculation on my part: At some point in the sea of time Jehovah decided to become 'He who causes to become', the Hebrew meaning of his name...

my italics
Its fair comment to speculate, but there is a logical inconsistancy here. How could Jehovah decide anything before Jehovah existed? Deciding implies pre existence. We are back to the old question: who created the Creator?

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fresco wrote:

neologist,

You sidestep the "prime mover" argument by reference to "non-linearity of time", but presumably you hold your deity responsible for "order".
But is not "order" itself a function of "linear time" (second law of thermodynamics)? And who recognizes such "order" other than a cognate being with "language" whose categories reflect such "order" by persistence over "time" . I suggest that the ID camp has an incestuous problem with "order" "time" and "intelligence" but leaving their comfortable "bed" for the perils of the void is too disconcerting for them to contemplate.

Thats very well put fresco. I like the comfortable bed analogy. In a way I'm almost looking for people like neo to give me reasons to jump right back in that warm bed where all questions have simple answers. I saw a card on someone's shelf recently...it said "Relax, God is in control". Its an attractive message, but its also an invitation to be intellectually lazy, and ultimately its unsatisfactory.

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In neologist's defense, I've always respected his preference for questions over answers.

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Funny that I should get more attention when I admit to speculation than when I aver something to be true.

There are two threads I know of attempting to define God. The most recent:
http://able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=96731
And a slightly older but longer one:
http://able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1707217#1707217

The idea I put forth that time is not linear is pure speculation on my part and probably originated in some long forgotten episode of Star Trek.

Then there is this thread in which I asked the Question "Is time linear?" with interesting comments:
http://able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1985437#1985437

Another way of observing time as a stream is to contemplate one having the power to either stop the stream temporarily or enter the stream at an earlier point. These are admitted speculations.

I must admit that the only way I can harmonize my reliance on the bible with my concept of space and time and causality is through speculation. I could be wrong on every count. But the validity of my speculation is irrelevant when it comes to Jehovah. I believe he exists because I have put him to a personal test. And the key to that test is understanding that when you inquire of God he is not required to give you an answer on your terms.

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Why are better educated people less religious?

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