Water Softener Concerns

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Hello, I live in Central Texas and I have very hard water. I do not currently have a water softener of any sort but am considering getting one. However, I have 2 concerns:

1. I have an extensive garden and I grow orchids. Sodium will kill my orchids, and I have read it is not good for plants in general.

2. I do not like the "slick" feeling I have experienced after using softened water at other places I have stayed.

Is there a way to alleviate these concerns and still lower the hardness of my water? I do have a complete water report from my city water company:

http://www.saws.org/our_water/waterquality/Report/charts.shtml

I admit I am NOT a DIYer. I want to pick up the phone and get a professional to do this. I do not mind paying more for excellent service. But I do not want to be ignorant when I call. This forum is a wealth of info and I am overwhelmed. It will take me a while to read everything. Until then I would just like your opinion on which water softening solution(s) would be best for my situation.

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The slick feeling you don't like is the way your skin feels when soft water lets your pores open. Hard water clogs your pores and prevents the nayrual oils of your skin to flow.

Many people who start out not liking the slick feeling and get used to it after a few weeks and never think about it until they visit someone who has hard water and then they miss home.

As far as your orchids, I don't know the water requirements but you have a couple options to avoid sodium.

One is to use potassium chloride (KCl) in your softener's brine tank. Info on KCl here... http://www.softeningsalt.com/index.html

Another option is to plumb so that your entire house gets soft water but the garden gets hard water. This may be the best solution.

In order to correctly size the softener your daily water use and the garden might impact that number in a BIG way.

As far as shopping for a softener here's what I recommend...

The water specs you linked to are what is certified at the treatment plant not necessarily what is coming out of your faucets.

First, get a complete water test from an independent lab. This is a MUST DO because without it everything is a guess. A quickie water test from Sears or a water softener company won't be complete. They only test for the "profitable" stuff.

Second, hit the Yellow Pages and call at least three local water treatment pros. Make sure you call at least one of the big dogs like Kinetico or Culligan and at least a couple independent pros. DON'T TELL THEM YOU HAD YOUR WATER TESTED.

Give each an opportunity to offer suggestions and provide you with a quote to meet your water treatment needs. IGNORE ANY THAT DON'T TEST YOUR WATER THEMSELVES as they can't speak intelligently to water treatment without knowing what needs to be treated.

Ask lots of questions. Softeneing the entire house or just the water heater (bad idea)? Warranty, parts & labor or just parts, how long and on exactly what? Install, permits required, licensed plumber? Routine maintenance and costs? Do they stock parts? Response time for emergency (water leak) calls? If they don't explain things to your satisfaction that is a good indicator of how you'll be treated after the sale.

After they've gone use your water test to compare with their's. Are all your treatment needs being addressed?

Ask your neighbors if they have any water treatment experience. They might tell you who's good or who to avoid.

Come back here and post the specific recommendations and hardware with the costs and we'll give you our opinions.

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Re: Water Softener Concerns

Gary Slusser wrote:

Beware of replies with advice that sounds great to the novice.

As always, free advice is worth exactly what you pay for it. If it's good advice with no ulterior motive then it's a great deal

Gary Slusser wrote:

ask for the definition of a "complete water analysis". You've already said your water is very hard, and you have your water company test results. Ask him why you need more testing than for those things that negatively impact on a softener's operation?

All you will ever want to know about drinking water requirements, quality tests, and how to find competent independent labs...

http://www.epa.gov/safewater/labs/index.html

Gary Slusser wrote:

So what's wrong with those selling softeners talking to you and testing your water and proposing a softener?

Absolutely nothing and you need to speak to the local water treatment pro once you are armed with sufficient information to do so. Ignorance can be cured but stupidity is an affliction.

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Re: Water Softener Concerns

justalurker wrote:

As always, free advice is worth exactly what you pay for it. If it's good advice with no ulterior motive then it's a great deal

Most of what you said is not good advice. He's on 'city' water, not his own well. You assume a water treatment dealer will lie to him about how hard his water is and how much of whatever would prevent a softener from working correctly etc.. Plus you do have more than one ulterior motives that he is unaware of but...

Telling someone with 'city' water to get "a complete water analysis" without defining what that contains and why is not helpful and puts him at the mercy of expensive water testing labs. IMO that is terrible advice.

Quote:

.... you need to speak to the local water treatment pro once you are armed with sufficient information to do so.

As if an internet dealer like me selling to DIYers can't inform him... especially when I'm about the only one that will with no cost or obligation and I've been doing it for over ten years all over the internet and Google Groups! Just as I did with you for months before you bought from me and then for over a year before you disrupted my forum and wouldn't so much as apologize. You're upset because you wouldn't contact me if your softener had a problem and you blame it on me.

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Re: Water Softener Concerns

Gary Slusser wrote:

How you decide that YOU will get the excellent part of that is beyond me, even if... your neighbor did, but usually there is no problem with them charging a lot for whatever service they give you.

Well what I meant was that I am not looking for an easy or cheap solution to my problem. I would rather pay a little more and have an expert install a system than do it myself. I certainly don't want to be overcharged or ripped off. From what I have read I assume the "magnetic" water treatments and the lifesource water treatments are not good options.

Thank you for your suggestions, this is very helpful information. However, I would also like to hear some brand names of water softener systems I should check in to, and the specs I should ask for. I have a 2000 sqare ft home, with just me and my husband living there...and my plants. What is the average cost for a water softener for a home this size? I am just trying to get a ballpark price range.

Thanks,
Teresa

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For one thing you always want to plumb so that you have a drinking water faucet that isn't soft. That same line should feed your hoses, watering with soft water is not only a bad idea, it is an expensive one as you have to pay for the extra salt and wear on the softener.

I would go to Sears. Just me, but they not only sell everything, but they can service anything they've ever sold. That may not seem like much now, but in 10 years and you're doing a fix/replace decision, it will.

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Call your local ECOWATER dealer and have them install a softener
in the #1 position followed by a backwashing carbon filter.
This arrangement will reduce the slick feeling you don't like.
If your waters total hardness is over 12 gpg consider an RO for drinking water and have it feed your ice maker.

If your plants currently thrive on the raw water have raw water run to the places you need it.

HTH ~

Nice avatar cjhsa Cool

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THANKS so much for your help. We do have an Ecosystems here in my city. I will check into it! If I can keep the kitchen faucet hard with an extra r/o faucet, and keep my outdoor faucets hard that will be perfect! Very Happy

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A softener purchased over the internet is not "cheap" quality, they are the same softener sold by a local independent dealer. And in many cases they are better than franchised dealer national brands. Many national brands are proprietary, meaning only that dealer can service it and you pay their charge for service and you pay a lot more for the softener to start with; like Ecowater. In most cases at least two thousand dollars more.

You can buy over the internet and hire a plumber for $250-500 to install it.

Magnetic and electronic anti-scale and descalers are not softeners. They do not remove any hardness from water. Lifesource is nothing more than an expensive version inside a filter.

The brand names of the control valve (Autotrol, Clack and Fleck), the resin tank and resin are what's important. The quality of the control valve is critical to service free operation of a softener. You can't by better than Clack or Fleck although the Fleck line requires special model specific Fleck tools to work on them. The Clack does not and is the easiest and fastest to repair, and anyone 14 or older can totally rebuild one and have the water back on in less than 30 minutes. You could buy a 1.5 cuft (48k) softener with a Clack control valve for less than $700 delivered anywhere in the lower 48 States.

You do not want hard water to the kitchen sink unless you run a separate line with a separate faucet. You want softened water for the sink. You do not get much benefit from drinking hard water and to get much, you'd have to drink A LOT of hard water. And too much will kill you. If you are concerned about added sodium in softened water, the formula is 7.85 mg/l of added sodium per grain per gallon of hardness in the raw water. I.E. 20 gpg hardness * 7.85 = 157 mg per roughly a quart of your softened water. A slice of white bread usually has 130-160 mg of sodium. An 8 oz glass of skim milk, 530 mg. V8 juice, 560 mg etc..

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Gary Slusser wrote:

A softener purchased over the internet is not "cheap" quality, they are the same softener sold by a local independent dealer. And in many cases they are better than franchised dealer national brands. Many national brands are proprietary, meaning only that dealer can service it and you pay their charge for service and you pay a lot more for the softener to start with; like Ecowater. In most cases at least two thousand dollars more.

You can buy over the internet and hire a plumber for $250-500 to install it.

Magnetic and electronic anti-scale and descalers are not softeners. They do not remove any hardness from water. Lifesource is nothing more than an expensive version inside a filter.

The brand names of the control valve (Autotrol, Clack and Fleck), the resin tank and resin are what's important. The quality of the control valve is critical to service free operation of a softener. You can't by better than Clack or Fleck although the Fleck line requires special model specific Fleck tools to work on them. The Clack does not and is the easiest and fastest to repair, and anyone 14 or older can totally rebuild one and have the water back on in less than 30 minutes. You could buy a 1.5 cuft (48k) softener with a Clack control valve for less than $700 delivered anywhere in the lower 48 States.

You do not want hard water to the kitchen sink unless you run a separate line with a separate faucet. You want softened water for the sink. You do not get much benefit from drinking hard water and to get much, you'd have to drink A LOT of hard water. And too much will kill you. If you are concerned about added sodium in softened water, the formula is 7.85 mg/l of added sodium per grain per gallon of hardness in the raw water. I.E. 20 gpg hardness * 7.85 = 157 mg per roughly a quart of your softened water. A slice of white bread usually has 130-160 mg of sodium. An 8 oz glass of skim milk, 530 mg. V8 juice, 560 mg etc..

Good to know.

We have a filtration system already in our fridge that we use for drinking water. I was planning on getting the R/O unit installed on the sink. We used to have an R/O unit, but to make a long story short, it was installed by my father in law, when they lived in this house and they never changed the filter for 2 years. When we moved in and they moved out, I finally convinced him to change the filter. He took it apart, and couldn't remember how to put it back together because the parts were all un marked and bought it from who knows where. He tried to re-install it and it ended up flooding our kitchen...twice. So we removed it entirely. I am not as concerned about my drinking the water as I am about my orchids dying.

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tdrollo wrote:

THANKS so much for your help. We do have an Ecosystems here in my city. I will check into it! If I can keep the kitchen faucet hard with an extra r/o faucet, and keep my outdoor faucets hard that will be perfect!

Excellent!

I'm glad I could help you Very Happy

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I don't like the taste of soft water - blech. I'd rather die of water-hardening of the arteries than drink that stuff.

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