SAFETY FROM VIOLENT DEPREDATIONS

Since compulsory education is accepted without controversy,
I suggest that there be mandatory safety training,
and accuracy training in firearms handling
in all schools whose students are able to lift a gun,
the same as many schools require proficiency in swimming
before their students will be allowed to graduate.
David

if society in itself causes the problems, is it unethical to condemn them?

...the fact is that children are capricious and unpredictable, often not cognizant of the consequences of actions until they try them out and lacking in impulse control in general- not the sort of personalities you want to be handling lethal weapons.

Quote:

David, I just wrote something about pedophiles being put in leper's colonies, not that I was advocating that- it was just a phrase I used-

A point of information, if I may:
do u also believe that as to pedophiles
who r the same age as those upon whom
thay r pedophiling ?

Quote:

but then when I was ironing a minute ago, I was thinking about it.
And I thought, you know, removal from society and its constant sexual imagery,
removal from children, and removal from all the people who would be getting in their heads negatively and inhibiting the effectiveness of their treatment,
might not be a bad idea during their rehabilitation.

By way of clarification,
my suggestion of BANISHMENT does not include any treatment.

It is limited to removing feloniously violent recidivists
from the North American Continent, and then leaving them
to take care of themselves; ( during conversation with a friend of mine,
I was willing to concede giving them occasional sandwiches ).
I do not contemplate running a prison,
nor any place of confinement; we 'd not prevent them from leaving,
as long as thay don 't sneak back in here.

Quote:

And then I thought- well, that's what prison is for.
But prison doesn't accomplish those things. It pretty much intensifies them,
especially the exposure and availability of pornography.

I will confess ignorance
of the relationship between prisons and pornography.

Quote:

I agree with your premise that people are what make tools dangerous.
And I'm coming to the point where I can see the point, that at least in America,
it's scary not to be able to protect oneself.
But your idea of arming and training children to use guns is ludicrous.
If you sat in even one fifth grade class for one day- you'd soon realized
that children are not emotionally or intellectually able to be trusted
with weapons while they are still children.

I DID sit in a 5th grade class, for the best part of a year,
when I was 10 years old in Arizona.
I was armed with a 2 inch Model 36 Smith & Wesson .38 revolver,
day after day and month after month. ( By age 10, I 'd had it for 2 years already )
There were no problems.
( R 5th grade students different in England than in America ? )

The other kids in the neighborhood had continual possession of guns,
with no complaints from anyone
of any person of any age
displaying bad manners with guns.
The police never showed up in response to any complaints.
Have YOU observed how 5th graders behave when in possession of firearms ?

The same way that we knew the difference
between real cars and toy cars,
we also knew the difference between guns
that u can go small game hunting with and imitation guns.
We never got confused.

I remember seeing on Peter Jennings World News Tonight,
some time during the 1990s, or 80s, a piece about the school where
the students MUST bring guns to school.
It was in the North Western USA; I don 't remember which state.
Thay interviewed about 6 or 8 blonde n blue eyed wholesome looking kids,
" fairhaired boys " ( maybe some girls )
ranging from 8 to 12 years old, who said that thay take their rifles
to school every day ( handguns had not been deemed to be
sufficiently powerful ), then thay put their hats on the hatrack,
put their coats on the coatrack, and their guns on the gun rack,
study arithmetic n geografy ( sadly, thay did not study fonetic spelling )
and at the end of the day, thay took their stuff and went home,
but no one was angry, no gun fights; it was peaceful.
Apparently, the indigenous local fauna had presented some
safety problems to ambient students.

Thru out the 1800s, there were no gun laws ( except against blacks,
in the South, after the Civil War ) and well into the early 20th Century,
there remained prevalent gun freedom.
Some places required that firearms show openly.
( That 's Y pick-up trucks have gun racks in the back window. )
Thay called it " open carry ".

The history of America does not show that there were mass
casualties from armed citizens of any age in those times.

Quote:

And why can't we as adults work to make the world safe for them, instead of teaching them they need to be afraid t

NO ONE has ever taught them that thay NEED TO BE AFRAID, so far as I know.
The same as when a person is taught to drive,
he is not told that he NEEDS TO BE AFRAID of flat tires,
but he might well be taught how to change a tire,
if that becomes necessary. Students shud be taught how to
successfully handle problems BEFORE thay present themselves, not after.
Failure to give such education is irresponsible negligence
on the part of the teacher.

Quote:

to the point that they have to be willing to kill to survive.
That's a sad statement to make to our kids about our country.

Since long before the evolutionary Dawn of Man,
those have been the natural circumstances.
We have ALWAYS lived in a predatory environment.
Survival is best enhanced by preparing for personal defense
BEFORE a personal predatory emergency arises.

U shud not wait until u smell smoke
before u go shopping for fire extinguishers.

Quote:

We should be ashamed if that's what we've created for them.

Then we have no cause for shame,
since Nature created that before, and since, Man began to exist.
WE did not create it; but we HAVE created some fairly decent devices for personal defense.
My preference is a Model 445 Taurus .44 special revolver,
loaded with hollowpointed slugs.
David

an adult who hasn't had much direct experience with children.

A point of information, if I may:
do u also believe that as to pedophiles
who r the same age as those upon whom
thay r pedophiling ?

By way of clarification,
my suggestion of BANISHMENT does not include any treatment.

Quote:

And then I thought- well, that's what prison is for.
But prison doesn't accomplish those things. It pretty much intensifies them,
especially the exposure and availability of pornography.

I will confess ignorance
of the relationship between prisons and pornography.

Quote:

b]If you sat in even one fifth grade class for one day[/b]- you'd soon realized
that children are not emotionally or intellectually able to be trusted
with weapons while they are still children.

I DID sit in a 5th grade class, for the best part of a year,
when I was 10 years old in Arizona.

I was armed with a 2 inch Model 36 Smith & Wesson .38 revolver,
day after day and month after month. ( By age 10, I 'd had it for 2 years already )
There were no problems.
( R 5th grade students different in England than in America ? )

The other kids in the neighborhood had continual possession of guns,
with no complaints from anyone
of any person of any age
displaying bad manners with guns.
The police never showed up in response to any complaints.
Have YOU observed how 5th graders behave when in possession of firearms ?

Thru out the 1800s, there were no gun laws ( except against blacks,
in the South, after the Civil War ) and well into the early 20th Century,
there remained prevalent gun freedom.
Some places required that firearms show openly.
( That 's Y pick-up trucks have gun racks in the back window. )
Thay called it " open carry ".

The history of America does not show that there were mass
casualties from armed citizens of any age in those times.[/b][/color]

Quote:

And why can't we as adults work to make the world safe for them, instead of teaching them they need to be afraid t

NO ONE has ever taught them that thay NEED TO BE AFRAID, so far as I know.

The same as when a person is taught to drive,
he is not told that he NEEDS TO BE AFRAID of flat tires,
but he might well be taught how to change a tire,
if that becomes necessary. Students shud be taught how to
successfully handle problems BEFORE thay present themselves, not after.
Failure to give such education is irresponsible negligence
on the part of the teacher.

Quote:

A point of information, if I may:
do u also believe that as to pedophiles
who r the same age as those upon whom
thay r pedophiling ?

Quote:

That's an interesting question

Thank u; I try to come up with good ones.

Quote:

- as "pedophile" means lover of children.
If a child loves another child in a sexual way- is that child a pedophile?

I guess if you went purely by the definition of the word and they were engaging consensually, they'd both be pedophiles.

Like Romeo n Juiet ( who, I believe, Shakespeare conceived of as being around 13 )
Even in the absence of contact,
if a child in the audience of a movie
saw Shirley Temple, or one of the " Our Gang " kids,
maybe Spanky or Alfalfa,
who became the object of amore,
is the one in the audience a pedofile ?

Quote:

But I'd think of it more as experimentation,
unless one child was forcing another, or manipulating a situation,
then he'd be a rapist as well.

But I think as society views pedophilia in its criminal form the reason it is invested with so much disgust
and judgment is because of the unequal distribution of power.

OK: if a 10 year old with a knife or a gun
rapes a 21 year old movie actress,
does that make him a pedofile ?

Quote:

An adult who is a sexual being acting out his or her sexual urges
on a child who does not have the same urges or even any understanding
of what is happening is a much more disturbing scenario than two
children of equal size, age and sexual development.

Children in elementary school
have been arrested for raping their fellow students, in school.

Quote:

By way of clarification,
my suggestion of BANISHMENT does not include any treatment.

Quote:

Why not?

Banishment means getting RID of them
( think Botany Bay Colony )
so that thay r not around any more;
hence, there is no further contact.

Quote:

Not under any conditions you can imagine?

That wud require either that thay r re-captured after thay sneak back,
or
that thay be chased, after the banishment, for that " treatment ";
that is not consistent with the filosofical cornerstone of banishment.

Quote:

Quote:

b]If you sat in even one fifth grade class for one day[/b]- you'd soon realized
that children are not emotionally or intellectually able to be trusted
with weapons while they are still children.

I DID sit in a 5th grade class, for the best part of a year,
when I was 10 years old in Arizona.

Quote:

Your memory of your perceptions of that time are probably terribly subjective
as you were observing and making judgments of your peers as someone
who hadn't yet lived long enough to achieve any objective standard or distance.

I had lived long enuf to objectively judge
when people of any age r sitting quietly, not bothering anyone.
( Tell me that I 'm rong. )
We did a lot of that in school.
I saw no difference in noise between 5th graders sitting in class,
listening to the teacher, and college students or law students.

In MY observation, thay all just sit there, take notes n listen;
maybe ask a question, occasionally.
( I was full of questions, at ALL ages. )

I assure u, in the fullness of good faith,
that I never shot up the classroom,
nor did anyone else.

Quote:

It's also fair to say, I guess, that as you are not a teacher,
that your specific peers were the only ten year olds with which you had
more than a passing acquaintance. That's hardly a large enough sample
from which to generalize the cognitive ability and impulse control of all ten year olds.

I am fairly confident that if any students of the other classes
had shot the place up, it wud have become the subject of discussion.
It was a pretty tranquil place.
I don 't remember any trouble.

However, I will not venture to comment upon
the impulse control of people of ANY age.
( How old were Stalin, Hitler n Pol Pot when THAY ran amuk ? )

Quote:

Added to the fact that generations of children change as times change David, and I guarantee you the ten year olds of today are more coddled and less responsible than the ten year olds of your generation, or even my generation.

It has been my direct observation
that kids packing heat
( be thay handguns or shoulder weapons )
are a lot more sedate
and self-possessed than kids whom I 've seen running around
( apparently unarmed )
in public places in NY, while acting foolishly.

Quote:

I was armed with a 2 inch Model 36 Smith & Wesson .38 revolver,
day after day and month after month. ( By age 10, I 'd had it for 2 years already )
There were no problems.
( R 5th grade students different in England than in America ? )

Quote:

I think British kids seem a little more mature and self-sufficient than American kids of similar age.

I 'll accpet your word, on a prima facie basis.

Quote:

The other kids in the neighborhood had continual possession of guns,
with no complaints from anyone
of any person of any age
displaying bad manners with guns.
The police never showed up in response to any complaints.
Have YOU observed how 5th graders behave when in possession of firearms ?

Quote:

No, I'm happy to be able to say I haven't. But I have seen many,
many, many fifth graders and their behavior with spitballs and slingshots
and conkers- and that's why I wouldn't even sit in the same room with
thirty fifth graders in possession of handguns.

Think back to Churchill 's stirring speech
of English resistence to any Nazi invasion,
on the beaches, and in many other places.

Is it your opinion that if your 5th graders had been in a last ditch
defense of home n family ( as actually HAPPENED, in Germany )
that thay 'd have been so undisciplined and foolish as to point
their weapons at one another, instead of the Nazis,
because of their age ?? I do not believe that thay wud.

When German children were conscripted by Hitler
into a last ditch defense of Berlin against the commies,
there is NO historical finding of chaotic activity on their part.
Thay acted like ordinary soldiers;
i.e., thay laid down, or braced,
aimed at the communists and shot them, as well as possible.
Hitler is on film giving them a lot of Iron Crosses.


There were 2 boys, 9 year old twins in Malaya ( I believe )
whose parents were killed by invading soldiers from Thailand,
during the 1990s; thay got some automatic rifles and formed a militia,
setting up successful ambushes againt the Thais ( Siamese ),
avenging the murders of their parents.
( Thay have my respect. )

At the age of 12, thay were defeated in combat and killed,
but until then, thay ran a respectable militia.
Thay did not act mindlessly, as u describe.
Thay were in all the papers n newsmagazines in the 1990s.
That historical experience is not consistent with the chaotic behavior
to which u have referred.

Thay were known for smoking cigars.

Quote:

Thru out the 1800s, there were no gun laws ( except against blacks,
in the South, after the Civil War ) and well into the early 20th Century,
there remained prevalent gun freedom.
Some places required that firearms show openly.
( That 's Y pick-up trucks have gun racks in the back window. )
Thay called it " open carry ".

The history of America does not show that there were mass
casualties from armed citizens of any age in those times.[/b][/color]

Quote:

Those were certainly different times.

I remember reading, during the 1990s,
of a statutory change in one of the western states
( I m thinking Colorado, or New Mexico ) outlawing people below
the age of 18 carrying handguns
unless thay were out fishing or camping etc.
Until THAT TIME, not so long ago when Billy the Kid was running around,
it was lawful for them to be well armed; no law against it.
The reason for the statutory CHANGE was said to be
too many rumbles among Mexican gangs in towns n cities;
other than the recent Mexican troubles, there had been NO reason
to strip young people of their handguns in public.
Hence, those " different times " extended up into about the 1990s,
and if those Mexicans had remained in Mexico,
the American kids wud probably STILL have the same freedom
that thay had since forever.

Quote:

Quote:

And why can't we as adults work to make the world safe for them, instead of teaching them they need to be afraid t

NO ONE has ever taught them that thay NEED TO BE AFRAID, so far as I know.

Quote:

As I said, it's different when you're a female.

MANY women are arming themselves;
fashions for the well armed female have evolved
and thriven financially.

Quote:

I was constantly aware that I needed to be wary and cognizant about not placing myself in dangerous situations.
I certainly don't attribute that all to the gun laws in any way,
but I do worry about people having guns,
when violent thought and action is so prevalent.

Not to be rhetorically clever,
but I worry more about their being UNarmed,
in that a pervasive knowledge of that fact
is an active ENTICEMENT to violent criminals to be more violently productive,
in that thay have an on-the-job SAFETY benefit ( like O.S.H.A. )
in that politically correct gun control laws have disarmed the victims prospectively.
Does a lion prefer to attack a healthy cape buffalo who has strong defenses,
or a weak and defenseless one ??

If YOU were a robber, or a rapist,
wud u rather attack a strong victim whom u suspect of being well armed,
or a feeble, helpless victim ??

Do gun control laws make future victims STRONG or weak in their defenses ?


If U were a burglar at 2 AM, wud u rather break into the house of some Quakers,
that bore sign proudly declaring that : " There are NO guns in this house. "
or wud u rather break into the house next door
whose inhabitants were known ACTIVE MEMBERS of the NRA ?

Quote:

It seems like guns just make it all so much easier for those who are interested in harming people.

That is the reason that thay r a DETERENT to crime:
the potential criminal KNOWS that an armed victim
will endeavor to kill the criminal as fast as he possibly CAN,
with no discussion; its too dangerous for the criminal.
The police r much safer for him to get along with.
Last nite, I saw that on 20/20,
when several violent criminals were interviewed in prison,
thay all agreed that what terrifies them the most is discovering too late
that their victim is ARMED in his own defense when all hell breaks loose on the criminal.
Thay indicated that thay never give any thought to obeying gun control laws.


Think about it, Rebecca:
if a criminal is willing to commit ROBBERY
or if a criminal is willing to commit rape and MURDER,
then,
by what reasoning shud he be interested in obeying gun control laws ??

Quote:

The same as when a person is taught to drive,
he is not told that he NEEDS TO BE AFRAID of flat tires,
but he might well be taught how to change a tire,
if that becomes necessary. Students shud be taught how to
successfully handle problems BEFORE thay present themselves, not after.
Failure to give such education is irresponsible negligence
on the part of the teacher.

Quote:

But if they don't have anything they need to be taught to be afraid of-

That is the fact.
Thay don 't; being afraid is not helpful;
( being PREPARED for possible trouble IS HELPFUL ).
When police or the Marines are preparing for a fight,
NO ONE tells them that thay need to " be afraid "
altho the danger is sometimes intense.

When u teach your child to drive,
u don 't tell him or her to do so in a state of ANXIETY and dread.
U just advise him to be ready to successfully deal with possible trouble along the road.

Quote:

what are they arming themselves against or in preparation for?

Against the potential of the predatory violence
of criminals or animals of which we read in the newspapers.
Maybe there is no crime in the Vatican,
but America had its Cho, and England had its Jack the Ripper.

Its better to have a gun and not need it
than to need a gun and not have it.
( Ask the students at Virginia Tech. )
David

Quote:

That's an interesting question

Thank u; I try to come up with good ones.

Even in the absence of contact,
if a child in the audience of a movie
saw Shirley Temple, or one of the " Our Gang " kids,
maybe Spanky or Alfalfa,
who became the object of amore,
is the one in the audience a pedofile ?

But I'd think of it more as experimentation,
unless one child was forcing another, or manipulating a situation,
then he'd be a rapist as well.

Quote:

But I think as society views pedophilia in its criminal form the reason it is invested with so much disgust
and judgment is because of the unequal distribution of power.

OK: if a 10 year old with a knife or a gun
rapes a 21 year old movie actress,
does that make him a pedofile ?

Quote:

An adult who is a sexual being acting out his or her sexual urges
on a child who does not have the same urges or even any understanding
of what is happening is a much more disturbing scenario than two
children of equal size, age and sexual development.

Children in elementary school
have been arrested for raping their fellow students, in school.

Quote:

By way of clarification,
my suggestion of BANISHMENT does not include any treatment.

Quote:

Why not?

Banishment means getting RID of them
( think Botany Bay Colony )
so that thay r not around any more;
hence, there is no further contact.

I had lived long enuf to objectively judge
when people of any age r sitting quietly, not bothering anyone.
( Tell me that I 'm rong. )

We did a lot of that in school.
I saw no difference in noise between 5th graders sitting in class,
listening to the teacher, and college students or law students.

In MY observation, thay all just sit there, take notes n listen;
maybe ask a question, occasionally.
( I was full of questions, at ALL ages. )

I assure u, in the fullness of good faith,
that I never shot up the classroom,
nor did anyone else.[/b][/color]

It's also fair to say, I guess, that as you are not a teacher,
that your specific peers were the only ten year olds with which you had
more than a passing acquaintance. That's hardly a large enough sample
from which to generalize the cognitive ability and impulse control of all ten year olds.
I am fairly confident that if any students of the other classes
had shot the place up, it wud have become the subject of discussion.

It was a pretty tranquil place.
I don 't remember any trouble.

However, I will not venture to comment upon
the impulse control of people of ANY age.
( How old were Stalin, Hitler n Pol Pot when THAY ran amuk ? )[/b][/color]

It has been my direct observation
that kids packing heat
( be thay handguns or shoulder weapons )
are a lot more sedate
and self-possessed than kids whom I 've seen running around
( apparently unarmed )
in public places in NY, while acting foolishly.

( R 5th grade students different in England than in America ? )

I think British kids seem a little more mature and self-sufficient than American kids of similar age.

Think back to Churchill 's stirring speech
of English resistence to any Nazi invasion,
on the beaches, and in many other places.

Is it your opinion that if your 5th graders had been in a last ditch
defense of home n family ( as actually HAPPENED, in Germany )
that thay 'd have been so undisciplined and foolish as to point
their weapons at one another, instead of the Nazis,
because of their age ?? I do not believe that thay wud.

When German children were conscripted by Hitler
into a last ditch defense of Berlin against the commies,
there is NO historical finding of chaotic activity on their part.
Thay acted like ordinary soldiers;
i.e., thay laid down, or braced,
aimed at the communists and shot them, as well as possible.
Hitler is on film giving them a lot of Iron Crosses.

There were 2 boys, 9 year old twins in Malaya ( I believe )
whose parents were killed by invading soldiers from Thailand,
during the 1990s; thay got some automatic rifles and formed a militia,
setting up successful ambushes againt the Thais ( Siamese ),
avenging the murders of their parents.
( Thay have my respect. )

At the age of 12, thay were defeated in combat and killed,
but until then, thay ran a respectable militia.
Thay did not act mindlessly, as u describe.
Thay were in all the papers n newsmagazines in the 1990s.
That historical experience is not consistent with the chaotic behavior
to which u have referred.

Quote:

Quote:

what are they arming themselves against or in preparation for?

Against the potential of the predatory violence
of criminals or animals of which we read in the newspapers.
Maybe there is no crime in the Vatican,
but America had its Cho, and England had its Jack the Ripper.

Its better to have a gun and not need it
than to need a gun and not have it.
( Ask the students at Virginia Tech. )

aidan wrote:

...the fact is that children are capricious and unpredictable, often not cognizant of the consequences of actions until they try them out and lacking in impulse control in general- not the sort of personalities you want to be handling lethal weapons.

so who but some sort of lunatic could seriously suggest they should?

Quote:

Om sig carrid a gun to school at 10 years of age--This is a fact attested by him.

By age 10, I had my .38 revolver for 2 years already.

Quote:

Therefore I can only conclude that Om Sig is 137 years old. and Arizona was a wilderness .
Any other circumstance is insane.

That shows your naked prejudice.
We had no problems.

Quote:

Even the most responsible gun handling kid must have supervision

Well we did not,
thereby disproving your assertion.

Quote:

to reinforce good gun habits and to avoid thinking of a gun as an "equalizer".

Equal to WHAT ??
We were not fighting.

Quote:

I was allowed to go hunting at 11 and enjoyed being prt of a select fraternity in which everyone was a teacher .
Guns are not pocket knives or hunting knives .
They have a degree of lethality that can be issued at distances out of the "safety range"

I dont believe theres a kid alive , unless you count Om Sihs tale of how 12 year olds had fended for themselves after their parents killings. (thats a totally different, no similarity to a kid being allowed to carry a loaded handgun to school)

Im aware, that in the past, kids were able to carry shotguns to school
the condition was that they were hunting before or after school , but these long guns had to be locked away upon entering the school
(at least in Pa while this charming custom was in practise ).


However, holstered handguns have a degree of finality that shoud never
be a part of independent variables in a classroom, kids do not have the
maturity to distinguish life and death situations.

While studying arithmetic or geografy,
I had no occasion to take out my gun, nor my pocket knife.

Quote:

Hell, as witness by Chos actions, we are not certain the age of reason's initiation.

According to u,
he did that because of his AGE ???

If we had been taken under gunfire,
as Columbine or Virginia Tech,
we 'd have a pretty good idea that the time for swift self defense had arrived.

Quote:

An "Open carry" was tried once in Imokalee Fla about 10 years ago.
To my knowledge, It was a disaster. People who packed were unable to act reasonably

What happened ?
What offended u ?

Quote:

Even the most responsible gun handling kid must have supervision

Well we did not,
thereby disproving your assertion.

Quote:

Quote:

Even the most responsible gun handling kid must have supervision

Well we did not,
thereby disproving your assertion.

Quote:

Disproves nothing.

Your logic is fatally flawed.

U alleged that we " must have " supervision,
yet we DID NOT,
thereby proving the falsity of the allegation
that we " MUST HAVE " supervision.
( Note also that the practice was unattended by any negative results. )

Quote:

It only proves that your parents and schools "frontier " mentality would not be transferable to 2007.

That is a extremely obvious non sequitur.
It fails to address 2007 in any respect;
it does not even mention 2007, not even indirectly.
Are u hallucinating ??

Quote:

You carried a gun but there were no incidences of gun violence.

Yes.

Quote:

So by your assertion are you saying that Assured mutual destruction
prevented your sicko friends from blasting away?

No; there was no reason for anyone to do so.
No one was angry about anything.

Quote:

You attempt at correlation is invalid, totally.

I don 't believe that you are able
to execute a rational analysis.
If you are, you have given no evidence thereof.

David

Which is actually rather tame... My Russian girl friend said she was the fastest in her class at tearing down and reassembling a Kalashnikov... but she was no good at throwing the potato (grenade practice).