Is the Pledge of Allegiance Relevant?

littlek wrote:

I hate the pledge. I hated it in high school. I hate it now. I especially hate the under one god part. But, now that I'm becoming a teacher, I have to stand up there with everyone else and say it. Grrr.

And I'm sure you'll pass all you miserable hate onto the unforunate children that get the likes of you for a teacher.

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I hope so.

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Quote:

How is The Pledge of Allegiance "laced with religious zealotry?" By adding, "under God?"

Yes.

littlek wrote:

I hate the pledge. I hated it in high school. I hate it now. I especially hate the under one god part. But, now that I'm becoming a teacher, I have to stand up there with everyone else and say it. Grrr.

Yeah...just like you have to teach how God created Earth in school now that you're a teacher. Wait, what?? You really should not stand for this. Not only is it unfair to you, but it is an injustice to the students and to their parents.

I have some young relatives who are being subjected to this kind of thing in school. I spoke with their parents and they showed me a pamphlet that they had brought home. On each page was a question like, "Who made Earth? God did. Who made People? God Did. Who made flowers pretty? God did." It was extremely offensive. If those were my children, I would have thrown a fit[i/]. As teachers you are role models to the children and if you don't object, you are teaching them a bad lesson.

For the first time in my life last week I participated in a prayer (which, incidentally, was captured on film). That is, I closed my eyes and respected it. This was initiated by a particularly evangelical (though goodhearted) professor of mine at the start of class. I was bothered by having an impromptu forced prayer in class, but since it was to honor the people who died in the Virginia Tech massacre, I was able to put this behind and take a moment to reflect and honor those who died.

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I'm pretty sure that MA doesn't teach that god created the earth in school.

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stuh505 wrote:

Quote:
How is The Pledge of Allegiance "laced with religious zealotry?" By adding, "under God?"

Yes.

So you consider the pledge "laced with zealotry?"
your such a petty little boy.

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Yeah...just like you have to teach how God created Earth in school now that you're a teacher. Wait, what?? You really should not stand for this. Not only is it unfair to you, but it is an injustice to the students and to their parents.

They teach evolution also. But you don't want to look at both sides. You just want to antagonize with lies and exagerations.

Quote:
For the first time in my life last week I participated in a prayer (which, incidentally, was captured on film). That is, I closed my eyes and respected it. This was initiated by a particularly evangelical (though goodhearted) professor of mine at the start of class. I was bothered by having an impromptu forced prayer in class, but since it was to honor the people who died in the Virginia Tech massacre, I was able to put this behind and take a moment to reflect and honor those who died.

The VT students propably preferred for you not to pray for them.

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Quote:

They teach evolution also. But you don't want to look at both sides. You just want to antagonize with lies and exagerations.

All possibilities with supporting evidence are considered. The ravings of lunatics who provide no evidence does not deserve a second glance.

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stuh505 wrote:

Quote:
They teach evolution also. But you don't want to look at both sides. You just want to antagonize with lies and exagerations.

All possibilities with supporting evidence are considered. The ravings of lunatics who provide no evidence does not deserve a second glance.

And the evidence that you provide? I know that evolution is taught in Miami-Dade County, Broward County, Palm Beach County, Martin County and St. Lucie County.
I suggest that you stop with the personal attacks.

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snookered wrote:

stuh505 wrote:
Quote:
They teach evolution also. But you don't want to look at both sides. You just want to antagonize with lies and exagerations.

All possibilities with supporting evidence are considered. The ravings of lunatics who provide no evidence does not deserve a second glance.

And the evidence that you provide? I know that evolution is taught in Miami-Dade County, Broward County, Palm Beach County, Martin County and St. Lucie County.
I suggest that you stop with the personal attacks.

If you don't like personal attacks, don't start with them!

Quote:

So Stuh, you don't like it, don't know why, you just don't like it. Well think hard you may come up with a reason. Rolling Eyes

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stuh505 wrote:

snookered wrote:
stuh505 wrote:
Quote:
They teach evolution also. But you don't want to look at both sides. You just want to antagonize with lies and exagerations.

All possibilities with supporting evidence are considered. The ravings of lunatics who provide no evidence does not deserve a second glance.

And the evidence that you provide? I know that evolution is taught in Miami-Dade County, Broward County, Palm Beach County, Martin County and St. Lucie County.
I suggest that you stop with the personal attacks.

If you don't like personal attacks, don't start with them!

Quote:
So Stuh, you don't like it, don't know why, you just don't like it. Well think hard you may come up with a reason. Rolling Eyes

Gee, I guess that really hurt. Now, what about your evidense.

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snookered wrote:

Gee, I guess that really hurt. Now, what about your evidense.

My evidence? I was simply pointing out that there is an overwhelming plethora of diverse and conclusive evidence for evolution...while there is no evidence whatsoever for creationism or any other religious idea.

Since the amount of provable information that could be taught is overwhelming, teaching faith based information would necessarily be displacing something true that they could be learning, as well as introduce false doubt in the already proven true information such as evolution.

The fact is that there is no dichotomy of thought between professionals, the dichotomy exists between educated professionals and uneducated religious zealots and politicians, who should not have any more say in the matter than a comedian has in supervising open heart surgery.

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stuh505 wrote:

snookered wrote:
Gee, I guess that really hurt. Now, what about your evidense.

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My evidence? I was simply pointing out that there is an overwhelming plethora of diverse and conclusive evidence for evolution...while there is no evidence whatsoever for creationism or any other religious idea.

Such was I.

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Since the amount of provable information that could be taught is overwhelming, teaching faith based information would necessarily be displacing something true that they could be learning, as well as introduce false doubt in the already proven true information such as evolution.

Your preaching to the Choir. I realize that evolution and only evolution could be responsible for this intricate world.
In fact it is happening before our eyes. It's not a coincidence that for the past 10 years kids have stayed inside playing video games and getting quicker and more intelligent. This evolution process will be reaching it's goal when it gets to be 150 degrees outside.
To believe that we came from Adam and Eve is something I just can't understand. I have to believe that people believe in this stuff can't think on their own
Anyway, this is way off my topic of the Pledge of Allegiance.
Sorry to have brought personal attacks to you and anyone else.

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snookered wrote:

Sorry to have brought personal attacks to you and anyone else.

Everyone has their rude periods, but not everyone can apologize for it. Thank you for doing so, that was admirable. I, too, apologize for my terse words with you. I have read other threads in which I considered your posts to be rude and argumentative, and so I did not give you much slack when I detected a hint of it towards myself.

Ok, I think the pledge of allegiance has been covered, but similarly...how about the "In God We Trust" on our currency?

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One of these was James Pollock, picked by President Lincoln as the tenth director of the U.S. Mint back in 1861. Pollock, who wanted the United States to become an official Christian theocracy, was able to get Congress to include in a law the phrase "...and the shape, mottoes, and devices of said coins shall be fixed by the director of the mint, with the approval of the Secretary of the Treasury;..."

Previously, Congress decided what would appear on coins - now, however, Pollock could do almost anything he wished. It was at this time that the phrase "In God We Trust" first began to appear on the nation's coins. Pollock got the idea to obtain the power to use this phrase from a Baptist minister, Mark R. Watkinson, who argued that it would "relieve us from the ignominy of heathenism." It was, then, specifically designed to promote particular religious beliefs to the detriment of other beliefs.

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Quote:

One of these was James Pollock, picked by President Lincoln as the tenth director of the U.S. Mint back in 1861. Pollock, who wanted the United States to become an official Christian theocracy, was able to get Congress to include in a law the phrase "...and the shape, mottoes, and devices of said coins shall be fixed by the director of the mint, with the approval of the Secretary of the Treasury;..."

Previously, Congress decided what would appear on coins - now, however, Pollock could do almost anything he wished. It was at this time that the phrase "In God We Trust" first began to appear on the nation's coins. Pollock got the idea to obtain the power to use this phrase from a Baptist minister, Mark R. Watkinson, who argued that it would "relieve us from the ignominy of heathenism." It was, then, specifically designed to promote particular religious beliefs to the detriment of other beliefs.

Every religion has a God, even Jews believe in God, it's the fact that they believe that Jesus hasn't arrived yet. Am I wrong? When you check into a hotel, does a Bible in the drawer bother you?
This brings up a big problem in our country. Trying to please everyone. I blame this on ACLU and attorneys seeking ways to make money.
Even though I'm agnostic, "In God We Trust" never bothered me. Putting my hand on a Bible and swear to tell the truth "so help me God", never bothered me. "under God" added to the Pledge of Allegiance doesn't bother me.
What bothers me is The President of the United
States pushing his Baptist religion into our lives and entwining it in our Government. The Faith Based Intuitive is doing more harm to our civil rights than anything written on money.
So what is it about these words "in God we Trust" and "under God" bothers so many people?

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I feel the same way. I'd rather pledge allegiance to an ideal or an idea than to a nation. I'd rather promote a spirit of unity within the world than a sense of isolationist and elitist nationalism to our children.

When my daughter was inducted to girl guides here in the UK, she had to raise her right hand and pledge allegiance to the queen. Someone asked me how I felt about that. I said that if the queen was a good person and worthy of respect, I don't mind my daughter pledging to respect her.

But in reality, to most of these kids, it's all just words. They don't even really understand what they're saying. That more than anything else is what makes it irrelevant and not worth worrying very much about.

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Chai wrote:

funny littlek, having gone to catholic school as a child, where you said prayers and the pledge each morning, I always thought the pledge was just another prayer. All I really heard was the "under God" part.

Funny thing, Chai. When I would say the pledge as a kid, it was just mindless nonsense to me, like having to wear white blouses at assembly. It all felt very robotic. I really could not connect to it emotionally.

I was in my early teens when the "under god" was added. Even though I had not really made any philosophical decisions at that stage of the game, except that I knew that religion annoyed me, I was very, very uncomfortable about those words. I would stand silently, but politely, when the "under god" was spoken.

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I still think that "liberty and justice for all" is a really good thing for Americans to be meditating on.

I don't mind saying that part... in fact if you take out the "pledge" part and the "under god" part, there is enough good left to keep it.

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I'd go for that, ebrown

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ebrown_p wrote:

I think Red Skelton is no longer relevant. His grammatical parsing in this overly sweet piece is logically flawed if nothing else.

But I have always thought the pledge of alliegence was a call to a higher ideal. America has never been perfect and has never fully met the ideals of "liberty and justice for all".

I don't buy the argument that the United States has "never been so divided". We had a civil war, and we are nowhere near that now.[/[/color]B] And we have always had stark political differences, from the abolition movement, to the civil rights movement through prohibition to abortion. America has often had deep divisions.

I don't believe that the US is worse than when Red Skelton said these words. In his time non-whites couldn't ride in the front of the bus, and American citizens of Mexican descent were being "repatriated" by force. This part of America is certainly better than before.

The struggles in America right now are not unique. America always has had struggles and challenges and somethings are better and somethings are worse and we go on.

There are two types of patriotism-- a good type and a dangerous type. The "America is always right" patriotism that denies rights of people who aren"t like us; The "victory at all costs whether we are right or wrong" patriotism; The "anyone who is different hurts our culture" patriotism... these are all very sinister.

Tthe good kind of patriot is someone who works to help America to be closer to her ideals, but any Patriot will realize that any human endeavor ... including democracy, will be flawed. Good patriotism questions assumptions of the majority, defends the vulnerable, stands up for the rights of minorities and tries to extend the core values of America.

"One Nation with liberty and justice for all' is a call that we should all get behind.

i dont believe that statement to be true. i could elaborate but if anyone here is from a ghetto or a project than you know what i mean. war is all over the streets, the job of the government is to hide it so the rich people feel safe.

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That's an interesting perspective OGIONIK.

I think the point you are making is that there is inequality in society-- between people with relative wealth, and people in poverty, and that people in poverty are the ones who are victims of the violence now in our society. (Correct me if my expression of your viewpoint is incorrect).

I agree with this part of it.

I don't agree with your statement that "the job" of government is to hide violence againt the poor so the rich are protected. I do see that this is at times the results of certain policies, but "the job" of government is to represent the needs of all people.

I understand the inequalities in our society (better than you, seeing only my ugly avatar and my words on a screen could know).

America is based on the idea that the government in for the people. This is enshrined in our Constitution and our laws. I can give you countless examples of when the poor or the disadvantaged fought against wealthy interests, within the context of our laws, and won. Of course this isn't always the case, and things aren't perfect... but a system that allows the poor to contest their treatment is a very important feature of America.

Your statement seems very angry... and (if I am not reading too much into) kind of hopeless.

I except that America is far from perfect... but the foundation of America, that is her ideals, have great value to me.

If you don't like the "war" that is "all over the streets", the question what are you doing about it. Are you working constructively as part of American society to make it better?

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not angry, im just impatient.

i dont like this society or where it is headed so i do my best not to meddle in it, i do my best to change myself for the better and hopefully others follow.

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Is the Pledge of Allegiance Relevant?

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