Is the Pledge of Allegiance Relevant?

It depends on the context...

If country is more important than the human race, then I would pledge allegiance to country before the human race.

If all living things on Earth are more important than the governmental system currently chosen for this particular country, then I would pledge allegiance to all living things before one particular governmental experiment.

In our current context of expanding businesses, if I want to sell people and motivate them, then a flag is a wonderful tool for that purpose. The whole point of politics is to influence other people, so a sing-songy catch phrase is pretty effective for that. So yes, definitely relevant! Blind patriotism actually does work.

I pledge Allegiance to the flag
of the United States of America
and to the Republic for which it stands,
one nation under God, indivisible,
with Liberty and Justice for all.

I think Red Skelton is no longer relevant. His grammatical parsing in this overly sweet piece is logically flawed if nothing else.

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If it was logically flawed, you would have told me how so.
It's not the relevence of Red Skelton, it's the Pledge of Allegience.

I don't buy the argument that the United States has "never been so divided". We had a civil war, and we are nowhere near that now. And we have always had stark political differences, from the abolition movement, to the civil rights movement through prohibition to abortion. America has often had deep divisions.

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I considered the Civil War, but since the Pledge Of Allegience hadn't been written yet, obviously it couldn't have relevence.
Never so Divided? Well, let's say a country never so outraged at what the Goverment is doing. Encouraging Religion to enter into Politics. Encouraging Religion to not only enter but influence Politics. A hard headed president that won't listen to his own people.

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I don't believe that the US is worse than when Red Skelton said these words. In his time non-whites couldn't ride in the front of the bus, and American citizens of Mexican descent were being "repatriated" by force. This part of America is certainly better than before.

Well, we are now building a frence to keep out Mexicans out, Cubans have to have a "dry foot," and Haitians could have no feet and still not get in.

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There are two types of patriotism-- a good type and a dangerous type. The "America is always right" patriotism that denies rights of people who aren"t like us; The "victory at all costs whether we are right or wrong" patriotism; The "anyone who is different hurts our culture" patriotism... these are all very sinister.

So right now we are in the "Sinister type of Patriotism." If your country is not Democratic, we will make you Democratic. "Victory at all costs" surly defines our current administrations ideals. A gem of Bush was, "if your not with us your against us."

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Tthe good kind of patriot is someone who works to help America to be closer to her ideals, but any Patriot will realize that any human endeavor ... including democracy, will be flawed. Good patriotism questions assumptions of the majority, defends the vulnerable, stands up for the rights of minorities and tries to extend the core values of America.

If I wore your Rosey red glasses, I might believe that too. So, where are these "good Patriots", that
you speak of? Are you kidding me? STAND UP FOR THE RIGHTS OF MINORITIES", while we fence them out. extends the core of values of America. By trying to eliminate the insertion of "GOD" on our currency, takiing the monument to the Constitution out of a Court House?

Isn't it amazing that Red Skelton had the forsight to add, That he hopes the addition of "under God" would not make the Pledge declared a prayer.

However, it is also like "..and with Liberty and Justice for all Christians."

I think ebrown has said it very well. And also, just to comment, I've never been asked to say the pledge of allegiance in any context.

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I pledge Allegiance to the flag
of the United States of America
and to the Republic for which it stands,
one nation under God, indivisible,
with Liberty and Justice for all.

However, it is also like "..and with Liberty and Justice for all Christians."

stuh505 wrote:

However, it is also like "..and with Liberty and Justice for all Christians."

Yeah, I'd like it a lot better without "under God."

I still don't like it though. Depending somewhat on circumstances.

My kid's started doing it in school (why now, I dunno, just started recently), and it's pissing me off. I was half-joking (with my husband) that it's fascist. I haven't done anything in particular about it, probably won't, it's not something that makes me REALLY mad, it's just kind of "oof."

I think you mean me, not Stuh.

There are a lot of reasons. I think it encourages a sort of unthinking submission to authority. Related, but more specific, I think it encourages a certain blind faith in one's country and the leaders of that country. I think that if the goal is for a child to memorize verse, there are many more worthy verses to memorize. I especially think that indoctrinating kindergarteners with the idea that this entire country is under God -- kindergarteners who may or may not be religious, who may or may not be Christian if they are religious, etc. -- is objectionable.

Most of these thoughts run at a minor enough level that I won't actually forbid my child from saying the pledge, nor take action against the school for requiring her to do it. (Kids get in trouble if they don't -- something else I object to.) But I don't like it much.

sozobe wrote:

stuh505 wrote:

However, it is also like "..and with Liberty and Justice for all Christians."

Yeah, I'd like it a lot better without "under God."

I still don't like it though. Depending somewhat on circumstances.

My kid's started doing it in school (why now, I dunno, just started recently), and it's pissing me off. I was half-joking (with my husband) that it's fascist. I haven't done anything in particular about it, probably won't, it's not something that makes me REALLY mad, it's just kind of "oof."

See Mr. Brown, the division starts about a single phrase "under God."
So Stuh, you don't like it, don't know why, you just don't like it. Well think hard you may come up with a reason.

snookered wrote:

sozobe wrote:

stuh505 wrote:

However, it is also like "..and with Liberty and Justice for all Christians."

Yeah, I'd like it a lot better without "under God."

I still don't like it though. Depending somewhat on circumstances.

My kid's started doing it in school (why now, I dunno, just started recently), and it's pissing me off. I was half-joking (with my husband) that it's fascist. I haven't done anything in particular about it, probably won't, it's not something that makes me REALLY mad, it's just kind of "oof."

See Mr. Brown, the division starts about a single phrase "under God."
So Stuh, you don't like it, don't know why, you just don't like it. Well think hard you may come up with a reason.

The "under God" bit was added in 1954. In 1892 (the year the pledge was first published), it was simply

"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all."

So Stuh, you don't like it, don't know why, you just don't like it. Well think hard you may come up with a reason.

snookered wrote:

So Stuh, you don't like it, don't know why, you just don't like it. Well think hard you may come up with a reason.

I don't have thoughts that have reasons which I can't account for. Perhaps if you weren't so dense you would have recognized the obvious reason which I already eluded to: it is supposed to be a generic statement that can be said with pride by all people, and yet it is laced with religious zealotry. What does patriotism have to do with brainless worship of a false deity? Nothing.

Yes Sozbe, Stuh has already corrected me.

Now do you have anything to add or just like to state the obvious?