Water softener and drinking water help

Ion exchange water softeners do not add salt to the water they soften.

Ion exchange water softeners exchange sodium (Na) or potassium (K) ions for calcium, manganese, and iron ions in hard water to make it soft.

True, the sodium or potassium starts out as NaCl (sodium chloride or common SALT) or KCl (potassium chloride) in the brine tank of the softener BUT the "chloride" ions are not exchanged into the softened water. The chlorine is sent to drain.

You can water plants with potassium softened water.

This falsehood is confusing and often used as a selling ploy by companies that compete with ion exchange softeners in the marketplace. These companies often market "magic" electronic and magnetic water conditioning devices of dubious competence that cost big bucks.

click here for... softener salt info

Many people find softened water eminently consumable and fine to drink and cook with. The harder the water is, the more sodium and potassium ions are exchanged. With really hard water that has been softened some people add a reverse osmosis (RO) unit under the kitchen sink to provide filtered pure water for drinking, cooking, and the icemaker... clear ice cubes are really cool (cold?).

If your doctor has you on a low or no sodium diet then potassium (KCl) softened water is your choice. Using KCl (potassium chloride) to soften water is more expensive but it is more environmentally friendly than NaCl (sodium chloride).

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Well said justalurker.

Modern softeners add only a trace of sodium if anything to the water.
Adding an efficient RO or distiller will provide ultra pure drinking water.
Both the distiller and RO benefit from solid carbon block post filtration.

HTH ~

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Re: Water softener and drinking water help

ry38read wrote:

I'm interested in a water softener for my home, but I have read places that the soft water is typically not good for cooking or drinking with potassium and sodium based softeners (essentialy salt).

Is this information I have gathered generally correct? I realize from posts here that all softeners are not the same (efficiency/reliability)

hardness (CaCO3) 227ppm
Iron 114 ppb

Soft water is not the same as softened water. Soft water is low in TDS and the pH is low also, making the water aggressive/corrosive. It differs from ion exchanged softened water from water softeners. Ion exchange softening, or a water softener, doesn't effect the pH or TDS unless it slightly increases the TDS due to the addition of sodium or potassium ions to the water. Salt is sodium chloride, the chloride is not used by cation ion exchange softening. ALL softener resins, thereby softeners, can use either sodium chloride, salt or, potassium chloride, salt substitute. Potassium chloride is not as good as softerner salt because no cation resins are made in anything other than the sodium form. So in many cases you must raise the salt dose of the softener accordingly and by how much is dictated by the salt efficiency setting of the softener. That is th enumber of grains of capacity per lb of 'salt' used. In some cases you will have to use as much as 30% more, although the one and only manfacturer of potassium chloride may/will say by not so much. Real world use of their product says otherwise.

As to if the information you have been given is correct or not, basically I'd say it is not. In residential applications, only ion exchange softeners, distillation, RO and nanofiltration membranes remove hardness from water. Magnets and/or electronic anti-scale and descaling devices (commonally refered to as salt softener substitutes by their sellers) do not remove any hardness from water. And the sellers go on'n on about the BAD salt added to the water by a softener. Then some sellers of softeners lie by saying MY softener doesn't use salt, it uses potassium and it's good for you. Well too much potassium will litteraly kill you, very quickly and too much is no more than a few tablespoons but... ALL softeners can use sodium or potassium chloride.

So let's see how much sodium your 227 ppm of hardness will cause a softener using sodium choride to add to your water. To convert to gpg (grains/gallon 227/17.1=13.27 gpg * 7.85 mg/l = 104.16 mg/l of added sodium to roughly a quart of your water. A slice of white bread contains 120-160 mg of sodium PER SLICE. An 8 oz glass of skim milk, 530 mg, V8 juice, 560 mg and so forth. So unless you are on a low sodium or sodium restricted diet, you shouldn't be concerned, and if you are, eat a slice less of white bread IF you drink a quart of your softened water and you'll actually reduce your sodium intake for the day.

Your iron would add a few gpg of hardness to the calculation used to set up your softener but only a few mg of sodium would result from that.

So... if you are looking for a softener, I suggest any correctly sized softener using a Clack WS-1 control valve. It is the easiest and fastest control to repair, and it is based on the same one moving part inj the water stream piston seals and spacers design of the Fleck control valves because it was designed by three exFleck engineers (still at Clack). Thereby it is the best choice for a DIYer that wants to replace a part when needed instead of calling a local dealer for service; and paying their service call charges and usually high parts prices. A total novice can rebuild a Clack WS-1 and have the water back on in 30 minutes with nothing more than a pair of channel lock pliers.

All Fleck control valves require special control valve model specific Fleck tools to replace the seals and spacers.

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thank you for the replies!

Personally I am more of a DIY person but due to the HOA I can't touch it. I need to have a licensed and bonded contractor to do the work.

It looks like I still have a bit of homework to do.

to Gary Slusser: Is there an easy way to tell if one companies water softener uses a clack or fleck control valve?

I was looking around ecowater's and rainsoft's site and I don't see much information on control valves. or any kind of specifics.

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Re: Water softener and drinking water help

ry38read wrote:

I'm interested in a water softener for my home, but I have read places that the soft water is typically not good for cooking or drinking with potassium and sodium based softeners (essentialy salt).

Is this information I have gathered generally correct? I realize from posts here that all softeners are not the same (efficiency/reliability)

hardness (CaCO3) 227ppm
Iron 114 ppb

Gary Slusser wrote:

Soft water is not the same as softened water.
ry38read is talking about softened water here.

As to if the information you have been given is correct or not, basically I'd say it is not.
Then you would be wrong. The information given prior to your reply is correct and valid.

So... if you are looking for a softener, I suggest any correctly sized softener using a Clack WS-1 control valve.
Who is going to service the Clack when it goes Tango Uniform? You? The customer?
Do you stand behind a do it yourself installation?
What resin tank do you use? What resin?
Who makes the brine tank and the brine controls?
What is the warranty on each these items?
Does your do it yourself customer need to deal with each supplier for warranty satisfaction?

ry38read, I recommend looking at the ECOWATER ERR 3500. It is designed for municipal/city
water and uses the least amount of salt of any other softener on the market.
ECOWATER systems are dealer installed and dealer serviced.

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ry38read wrote:

Is there an easy way to tell if one companies water softener uses a clack or fleck control valve?

If you're dealing with an honest and professional water treatment company they should happily explain exactly what components comprise their softener.

If you are going to hire "a licensed and bonded contractor to do the work" then either of a number of Fleck (the industry standard) or Autotrol or Clack control valves and proprietary designs such as ECO and Kinetico which will provide long and reliable service, BUT that "licensed and bonded contractor" (who should be a water treatment professional and not simply a licensed plumber) will have a preference based on his/her personal experience with their own installations in your area and they probably stock replacement and service parts for their favorite models.

Allow that pro to advise you because they will be standing behind, warranting, and servicing what they recommend, sell, and install for you.

Back on the sodium question...

Gary Slusser wrote:

So unless you are on a low sodium or sodium restricted diet, you shouldn't be concerned, and if you are, eat a slice less of white bread IF you drink a quart of your softened water and you'll actually reduce your sodium intake for the day.

When my doctor says "no sodium" he means no sodium. No sodium directives from the doctor include researching and eliminating ALL sodium intake, that's why ingredients are listed on the label. No sodium means no sodium from salt, bread, soup, et al. No sodium doesn't mean that I have the latitude to decide how much sodium more than NO sodium is allowable. No sodium doesn't mean "some" sodium or a "little" sodium.

Granted, my doctor doesn't consult with laymen before advising treatment for his patients and I thank him for that.

This digresses from the thread but until someone here posts their medical degree or license let's not be giving medical advice. It's hard enough giving honest and unbiased advice on water treatment for us to be wanting to play doctor.

As always, free advice is worth what you pay for it Smile

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ry38read... Yes, simply familiarize yourself with what they look like by visiting the Clack and Fleck web sites and don't buy from any dealer or company salesman that won't/doesn't tell you what control valve he is selling you. BTW, my web site has pictures of the three brands of control valves I sell.

justalurker...reread what you quoted me saying and see that it does not include you since you obviously are under a low salt or a restricted sodium diet. Then check with your doctor and make sure he said "no salt" because humans can not live without salt. So I suspect he will give you a minimum amount of salt you must have, or an amount not to exceed (that's normally how it's done), and then you'll learn how to count your intake by paying strict attention to those lables you mention.

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Gary Slusser wrote:

justalurker...reread what you quoted me saying and see that it does not include you since you obviously are under a low salt or a restricted sodium diet. Then check with your doctor and make sure he said "no salt" because humans can not live without salt. So I suspect he will give you a minimum amount of salt you must have, or an amount not to exceed (that's normally how it's done), and then you'll learn how to count your intake by paying strict attention to those lables you mention.

Thank you Dr. Slusser Rolling Eyes

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Re: Water softener and drinking water help

H2O_MAN wrote:

Who is going to service the Clack when it goes Tango Uniform? You? The customer?
Do you stand behind a do it yourself installation?
What resin tank do you use? What resin?
Who makes the brine tank and the brine controls?
What is the warranty on each these items?
Does your do it yourself customer need to deal with each supplier for warranty satisfaction?

1. My customer because they want to, and they want to save money and work on their schedule rather than a service guy's schedule that he may not be able to keep and has to reschedule for tomorrow or the next day.

2. Stand behind a DIY installation... installation is simple plumbing just like installling a water heater or clothes washer. I've done thousands of them. No one has broken anything yet.

3. Tanks are industry standard Structural, Enpress and Clack. Private labled Purolite and High Cap.

4. Five yrs on all the control valves, ten yrs on the tanks, and 1 yr on resins. All are industry standard manufacturer warranties.

5. All warranties are back to the dealer back to the supplier back to the manufacturer. I troublshoot, run it past the supplier, they ship a part, the customer ships the bad part to my supplier and eventually I get a credit for the price I paid for the new part. That's not the way I'm supposed to do it but that's what I do. BTW, out of roughy 1100 sales in the last 42 months to DIYers, I've had only 22 +/- problems; 16+/- on 800+/- Clack valves and the rest (6+/-) on 30+/- Fleck valves. Fleck is no where near the same quality as the Clack.

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Re: Water softener and drinking water help
Who is going to service the Clack when it goes Tango Uniform? You? The customer?

Gary Slusser wrote:

My customer because they want to, and they want to save money and work on their schedule rather than a
service guy's schedule that he may not be able to keep and has to reschedule for tomorrow or the next day.

Sorry to hear you had such a tough time running your service department.

I offer same or next day service and work within my clients schedule.
Of course service calls on Fleck 2510SE valves are few and far between.
As most people here know, RainSoft valves are another story and require much service.

***********************************************

Do you stand behind a do it yourself installation?

Gary Slusser wrote:

Stand behind a DIY installation... installation is simple plumbing just like installling a water heater or clothes washer.

Your answer is NO.

If your do it yourself customer makes any mistake in the installation and set up they are SOL. The Calvary is not on the way to help them.
If it is determined that the problem is covered by your limited warranty the customer must remove the part, ship it, wait for the new part,
re-install it, check to see if it was really the problem and hope the problem was diagnosed correctly and that the supplier sent the correct part.
If any step in this multi-step do it yourself service call is missed - they get to do it again. Brilliant!

Chances are good your customer has been without treated water and possibly without any water during the entire ordeal.

You get what you pay for ... You don't get what you don't pay for.

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Re: Water softener and drinking water help

H2O_MAN wrote:

Who is going to service the Clack when it goes Tango Uniform? You? The customer?

Gary Slusser wrote:

My customer because they want to, and they want to save money and work on their schedule rather than a
service guy's schedule that he may not be able to keep and has to reschedule for tomorrow or the next day.

Sorry to hear you had such a tough time running your service department.

huh? Reading my reply, where do you get that I had a problem with my service? I was stating what many of my internet customers tell me from their experience with service from their previous local dealer's.

Quote:

I offer same or next day service and work within my clients schedule. Of course service calls on Fleck 2510SE valves are few and far between. As most people here know, RainSoft valves are another story and require much service.

Then you must not be very busy.

Quote:

Do you stand behind a do it yourself installation?

Gary Slusser wrote:

Stand behind a DIY installation... installation is simple plumbing just like installing a water heater or clothes washer.

Your answer is NO.

If your do it yourself customer makes any mistake in the installation and set up they are SOL.[/quote]

Aa.... installation is plumbing, set up is not plumbing. Set up IMO is programming the control valve. There is no control valve that is easier to program than a Clack WS-1, it takes all of 90 seconds or less but not more than 10 minutes for a Fleck valve.

What's to screw up in your opinion Kevin?

Quote:

The Calvary is not on the way to help them.

If my customer has any questions or a problem their instructions are to call me. I suspect you tell your customers the same. Very very few have any questions or problems. I sell at least one softener or filter every day pf the month, I get fewer than one call a week from ALL my customers, local since 1987 and DIYers as far back as mid 2002. Some post in my forum and don't call me.

Quote:

If it is determined that the problem is covered by your limited warranty the customer must remove the part, ship it, wait for the new part, re-install it, check to see if it was really the problem and hope the problem was diagnosed correctly and that the supplier sent the correct part.

What problem? What do you think can be broken or cause a warranty problem?

But if there was a problem, that IS NOT how it is fixed. You'll have to reread what I said as to how I fix problems, here is a copy.

5. ..... I troubleshoot, run it past the supplier, they ship a part, the customer ships the bad part to my supplier and eventually I get a credit for the price I paid for the new part. That's not the way I'm supposed to do it but that's what I do.

Quote:

If any step in this multi-step do it yourself service call is missed - they get to do it again. Brilliant!

Chances are good your customer has been without treated water and possibly without any water during the entire ordeal.

Man a control valve or a softener or filter isn't that complicated!! You're really stretching now. You sound like Andy or justalurker or a WQA dealer but... my (newly delivered) equipment not providing softened or filtered water has happened only 4 times; seepage leaking tanks as they were filled the first time and a broken push button stem on a Fleck 7000 control but, he still had softened water (with the valve unplugged, and new resin) until the new valve arrived and he replaced the original which was 5 days. I and my supplier sent the valve in case something else on the original valve was damaged in shipping other than the circuit board. There wasn't.

And if a customer needs help, they call me and I walk them through the whole process until their water is back on, it takes maybe 30-45 minutes and there is no charge for my service; including the phone call I pay for.

Quote:

You get what you pay for ... You don't get what you don't pay for.

Yeah that's what most local dealers say while they wrap their customers in mystery as to how their products go together and make them dependent on their installation, set up programming and GREAT if not instant service. All that for up to thousands of dollars more for the same piece of equipment or its equivalent.

BTW, on your web sites, I see you replace some good looking not that old equipment with new equipment instead of troubleshooting and repairing it.

I also see Ecowater mentioned yet you told me you are not an Ecowater dealer, why their mention then? I also see National sales of certain products, yet you told me only local sales.... and now this post with wild scare the DIYer type statements but, why the two web sites with different names yet all but identical? Local dealers usually do that to keep locals from seeing their local dealer company name and their internet dealer/DIYer side. Care to share your reasons?

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Re: Water softener and drinking water help

Gary Slusser wrote:

and now this post with wild scare the DIYer type statements

I hope ry38read and others find some of this helpful or at the very least a little bit entertaining.

Happy Easter everybody!

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I believe s/he will, and others that read it, due to some of the info being appropriate and accurate.

BTW, where you said I was wrong in saying the info was incorrect, I wasn't replying to other replies before mine. Here's what I replied to:
ry38read wrote:
I'm interested in a water softener for my home, but I have read places that the soft water is typically not good for cooking or drinking with potassium and sodium based softeners (essentialy salt).

Is this information I have gathered generally correct?

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H2O_MAN

I was looking for where you used the word "WRONG" but couldn't find it anywhere in your text. I had a recent similar experience myself.

Don't let someone misquoting you cause any hardship...[;-}

It's all in good fun...or just silly.

BTW...What ever happened to the person starting this thread? In the past, when I have read your contributions, the conversation between you and them have gone on to some useful extent. But recently, it seems, that they never come back...What do you think has caused this change in this forum?

I have seen this happen elsewhere.

Andy Christensen, CWS

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Water softener and drinking water help

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