ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI

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"ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI" - This is translated as "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken me" and is the last words Jesus said when dieing on the cross according to the Gospels of Mark and Matthew.

The main question here is why would God forsake him? Or are these not his last words but only that of the authors who wanted to dramatize the situation or copy that of Psalms which says:

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, so far from the words of my groaning?

Psalms 22:1

Alternatively you can look at Jesus' other last word "Baddach Ephkid Ruel" which translate as "Thy hands I commit my spirit.", as written in the Gospel of Nicodemus, the Gospel of Luke, and the Acts of Pilate.

"BADDACH EPHKID RUEL" as written in the Gospel of Nicodemus, the Gospel of Luke, and the Acts of Pilate.

Then Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, "Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit!" And having said this he breathed his last. Luke 23:46

The Gospels of Mark and Matthew state that Jesus said "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?", while John says he said "It is over" before he died.

So why so many contradictions, or did he say them all, if so then why did God forsake him ?

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I think it is strange that these things are given such emphasis.

Most of the time we can't remember exactly what our neighbor said last week when we met in the street. Why give any credence to something someone allegedly said over two thousand years ago?

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because the fate of the world relies on it......

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That the gospel writers did not collaborate on what they wrote is more a testimony to their authenticity than to contradiction.

However, I would challenge the Trinitarians to explain why he did not say something to the effect of "OH me OH my! Why have I forsaken myself."

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Re: "ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI"

BDV wrote:

"ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI" - This is translated as "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken me" and is the last words Jesus said when dieing on the cross according to the Gospels of Mark and Matthew.

The main question here is why would God forsake him? Or are these not his last words but only that of the authors who wanted to dramatize the situation or copy that of Psalms which says:

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, so far from the words of my groaning?

Psalms 22:1

Alternatively you can look at Jesus' other last word "Baddach Ephkid Ruel" which translate as "Thy hands I commit my spirit.", as written in the Gospel of Nicodemus, the Gospel of Luke, and the Acts of Pilate.

"BADDACH EPHKID RUEL" as written in the Gospel of Nicodemus, the Gospel of Luke, and the Acts of Pilate.

Then Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, "Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit!" And having said this he breathed his last. Luke 23:46

The Gospels of Mark and Matthew state that Jesus said "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?", while John says he said "It is over" before he died.

So why so many contradictions, or did he say them all, if so then why did God forsake him ?

Jesus quoted Ps 22 because in it are many specific prophesies to the manner of His death. These were foretold by David 1000 years previous.

6But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.

7All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,

8He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him

14I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.

15My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.

16For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

17I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.

18They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

There is no contradiction between the Biblical accounts. Different writers chose to include different detail, but none exclude the other.

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That the gospel writers did not collaborate on what they wrote is more a testimony to their authenticity than to contradiction.

And that only four out of more than one hundred gospels were selected for the bible, and all the rest were burned is a testimony to conspiracy.

BDV

How does the fate of the world rely on those words?

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Cyracuz wrote:

Quote:
That the gospel writers did not collaborate on what they wrote is more a testimony to their authenticity than to contradiction.

And that only four out of more than one hundred gospels were selected for the bible, and all the rest were burned is a testimony to conspiracy.

And the conspiracy is? . . .

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I don't know. But I suspect that if the ones who compiled the new testament were interested in the historical value of this book they would have at least made references to all the other sources they chose to disregard.

Maybe the conspiracy was to create a means to rule undisputed, something the church did for several hundred years thanks to the bible...

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Not on the words, but until religionist extremism/literalists are dealt with then that section of the right is driving us towards the end of the world, (cause the bible told them so), a very dangerous situation, especially when the most powerful world leader is a born again, and is intent in stirring up trouble from other opposing religious right wing groups.

Cyracuz wrote:

Quote:
That the gospel writers did not collaborate on what they wrote is more a testimony to their authenticity than to contradiction.

And that only four out of more than one hundred gospels were selected for the bible, and all the rest were burned is a testimony to conspiracy.

BDV

How does the fate of the world rely on those words?

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BDV wrote:

Not on the words, but until religionist extremism/literalists are dealt with then that section of the right is driving us towards the end of the world, (cause the bible told them so), a very dangerous situation, especially when the most powerful world leader is a born again, and is intent in stirring up trouble from other opposing religious right wing groups.

Cyracuz wrote:
Quote:
That the gospel writers did not collaborate on what they wrote is more a testimony to their authenticity than to contradiction.

And that only four out of more than one hundred gospels were selected for the bible, and all the rest were burned is a testimony to conspiracy.

BDV

How does the fate of the world rely on those words?

Dubya's claim of christianity should be judged by his actions.

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neologist wrote:

However, I would challenge the Trinitarians to explain why he did not say something to the effect of "OH me OH my! Why have I forsaken myself."

Simply enough.
Jesus was even though he was God Revealed, had to die a human death.
I Timothy 3:16 God was manifest in the flesh.
Manifest means to be seen.
God was seen in the flesh.
Simple.
Neo.
And
The Word was with God and the Word was God.
You know the verses.
I am not adding anything to them.
I am letting them say what they say.
GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH.
Simple.
If you do not believe this, you are not a Christian. Simply put.

For with God nothing is impossible.

Do not forget this
God CAN be both man and god at the same time.
It is NOT IMPOSSIBLE for him.
If you even begin to think it is then you are calling GOD A LIAR.

Is that what you think NEO?
Is God a Liar to you?
If not, then you have to give room that maybe Jesus is God.

This is from a post i made a long time ago.

Quote:

One I will not sit here and type out 50 verses to try to prove or disprove the trinity.

I will only do 5 verses at a time. If you have a counter verse or verses I ask that you keep your posts to 5 verses max. THanks.

Verse One.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Who is the us, right here at the very beginning of the bible we see God saying that God is an US. Who is the US??????
Who is the our, again two times in this verse God says that God is both a US and a OUR. Those words are plural aren't they????

And you know what just that one verse settles the whole arguement GOD IS A MULTIPLE PERSON BEING. That one verse and that one verse alone proves it. I don't even need to use any other verses really to prove the multiple beings in God.

Verse Two:
1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Whoa there we have it the answer to what the trinity means. THESE THREE ARE ONE. What three? Well the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost of course.

Verse Three and Four
Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Now with these two verses and further reading in John 1 we find that the Word is Jesus. so I John 5:7 is basically saying that the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are one.

Now for my Fifth and last verse.
Luk 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and [he] to whom the Son will reveal [him].

O wow no one can know the father or the son unless the son reveals it to them. So unless you believe in the Son you can not know the father, so any one who does not believe in the son has no right in trying to claim the know the father, and neither do they have any right to try to argue against christ, for if christ does not reveal the truth to them then they know not what they are talking about and are just rambling about in spiritual darkness, being blind and leading others in the paths of darkness, where at then end of said path is a pit of fire.

I leave you with this Neo.
Take a glass.
Fill it with water.
Now you have a glass of water.
The water is not the glass, neither is the glass the water.
Now change that whole idea.
Take body.
And a spirit.
Put the spirit in the body?
Do they follow the same proceeder as the glass and water.
No
The bible says
... the body without the spirit is dead ...
So now take a man.
put instead of a normal human spirit the God's own spirit in him.
Would he not be now both Man and God?
Yes he would.
He would be fully man in the flesh.
And fully God in the spirit.

And now you can understand what was meant by "my god my god why hast thou forsaken me."
His spirit was leaving.
He knew it as a man.
he was dying a human death.

But thank God, that he is God for he raised up his own temple three days later just like he said he would

Mar 14:58 We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.
Jhn 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Mat 26:61 And said, This [fellow] said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.

Jesus was the full revealation of the temple of God.
He was what each part of the tabernacle represented, and then deep within sitting on the holies of holies was the spirit of God.

Its so simple Neo.

I feel so sad that you JW's can not see this.
Well there you have it.
Good day.

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Incredible illustrations, Scott.

Perhaps I should post a new topic, but maybe you have a ready answer:

To whom was Jesus obedient? (Hebrews 5:8)

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Do you guys get a kick out of arguing for/against such things as the trinity, so you just debate for debates sake, or do you feel like you're really defending truth and ideals that will lead to something more? Or is there a secret option number 3 or is it both of the above etc?

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You know, Ashers, that if you say something enough times it will become true... :wink:

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I was just thinking that. You need more than mental gymnastics, you need to be able to convince yourself of that which you want to believe, to the extent that you no longer remember convincing youtself of anything, at some point it all became self evident.

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Ahh.. so much stupidity, where to start from...

Quote:

Alternatively you can look at Jesus' other last word "Baddach Ephkid Ruel" which translate as "Thy hands I commit my spirit.", as written in the Gospel of Nicodemus, the Gospel of Luke, and the Acts of Pilate.

"BADDACH EPHKID RUEL" as written in the Gospel of Nicodemus, the Gospel of Luke, and the Acts of Pilate.

Of those the earliest is the Gospel of Luke. The Acts of Pilate were written between 150-200, and the GoN was written sometime in the 2nd/3rd century. The Gospel of Luke is quoted by the early church fathers before 150, so it goes to show who copied who if that's your concern.

Quote:

Then Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, "Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit!" And having said this he breathed his last. Luke 23:46

The Gospels of Mark and Matthew state that Jesus said "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?", while John says he said "It is over" before he died.

So why so many contradictions, or did he say them all, if so then why did God forsake him ?

Please point to me where in Matthew does it say that Jesus died exactly after He said that. John 19:30 might be a candidate for this alleged discrepancy, but it doesn't stress that He died immediately after saying that, whereas Mark and Matthew do. Truly a massive amount of contradictions.

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And that only four out of more than one hundred gospels were selected for the bible, and all the rest were burned is a testimony to conspiracy.

Can you please point to me to any gospel besides the four canonical ones written before 100 AD. Thank you.

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Ashers wrote:

Do you guys get a kick out of arguing for/against such things as the trinity, so you just debate for debates sake, or do you feel like you're really defending truth and ideals that will lead to something more? Or is there a secret option number 3 or is it both of the above etc?

We debate to entertain folks like you, of course.

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neologist wrote:

Incredible illustrations, Scott.

Perhaps I should post a new topic, but maybe you have a ready answer:

To whom was Jesus obedient? (Hebrews 5:8)

Of course I will answer this.

To the Father.
And the Holy Spirit obeyed Both Father and Son.
But this does not make any of them less equal than the other.

They all had foreknowledge.
They all had part in creation.
They all could forgive sins.
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.
Who but God can do these things?
No one but God.
Therefor the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are God.

They all share a name.
Which is Jehovah.
Jehovah is the Father.
Jehovah is the Son.
Jehovah is the Holy Spirit.

And it is really really sad that you JW's put such strong emotion on the word Jehovah when that is not even correct.

I unlike you do not try to make the bible say something it does not.

The bible says:
GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH.

There should be no argueing beyond this.
It is without controversy.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

There is no room for you to aruge with this verse. It says GOD WAS MANIFEST.
END OF STORY.

the word used is theos, which correctly translated here is God, the wrong way to translate it is he, which is what the JW bible does.
That is a HUGE mistranslation.

And on top of that
Jesus is NOT MICHEAL the archangel.

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Can you please point to me to any gospel besides the four canonical ones written before 100 AD. Thank you.

Isn't there supposed to be a gospel written by Mary Magdalene? According to some sources there's even one written by Jesus himself.

Besides, Jesus was of royal blood. One would think that historians of his time would be interested in his life. After all, writing was invented...

Thing is, there are precious few clues to what happened besides the bible. That's just not natural.

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ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI

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ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI