Religion still affects your life whether you believe or not

Disagree. The only reason for its utility as a social force is because of its widespread belief as a personal belief. Can't have one without the other.

Well, I do not understand why do the agnostics and Christians share the approach of the Jewish Orthodox rabbis that consider Jews being a religious community, while in fact, Jews are the ethnic entity, and they can confess any religion or not confess any, remaining being Jews. Hitler persecuted Jews not for their being followers of some specific religious doctrine, but on the ethnic grounds that he preferred calling "racial" (it is not accurate, since the European Jews are Whites, just like Germans themselves).

Seems to me the Jews were considered an ethnicity when Hitler had them rounded up.

Steissd- Interesting, and something that I have pondered from time to time. But wasn't this ethnicity originally borne of a common religious thought, which may not be applicable in modern times?

Religion is an integral part of a culture. If you live as part of a society, religion affects your life without question.

Our current culture is saturated with religious ideas and metaphors -- and I am not just talking about the current administration.

We all are inculcated with ideas like "God Bless America" and "God helps those who help themselves".

These are more then trite cliches. They represent the idea that there is a benign force that is watching over the nation. This idea is woven into the psyche of every American. It is taught to us by our families and our educational system. It is reinforced by our peers and even our pop culture.

Why do you think that nearly every politician talks about God regardless of their political stripts. It is becuase they know that "God" (as an idea) is a important common them in American Culture. By using these iherently religious metaphor they can powerfully conjure an image that is understood by every American.

You don't have to be religious (i.e. a believer) to be affected by these images.

And I will point out again the very important uses of religious metaphor in the civil rights movement. When Dr. King said "I have been to the mountaintop" all of America understood the reference to the Exodus of Moses. This was a powerful metaphor of a people yearning for freedom. It is all the more powerful becuase this biblical story is common knowledge of every American.

This is of course true of every culture. Religion provides several things that a culture requires. It gives a common belief system, a basis for a system of morality and feeling of identity.

This is the reason that every culture -- from Ancient Egypt to Mao's China to America today -- has religious ideas that are deeply ingrained in society. (I am still waiting for someone to give me the counter-example of a society without strong religious ideals.)

Denying that religion does not affect you is ignoring that you are part of a society.

ebrown_p- Agree. Whether one is religious or not, I think that there needs to be a recognition that all culture was developed by people attempting to understand the forces that controlled the world. Religion enabled people to make sense of natural phenomena, & to develop an ethical and philosophical basis for existence.

Whatever ones concept of the role of religion in their lives now, I think that one must acknowledge that religion is tightly interwoven in the fabric of all cultures.

Stessid:



Please explain that comment to Indian, Ethopian, Irish, French etc, Jews.


And, then explain your comment to all of the converts to Judaism.

Yes, it originated from a common ethnic experience, but that was thousands of years ago. Lets move forward to the age of conversion, intermarriage and dispersal of Judaism around the world.

The point was about Hitler's view of the Jews, not our own.

Reform, Conservative, Orthodox Rabbis...all consider Jews to constitute a religious community. Judaism is the religion of Jews.

I personally, don't know how you inserted the topic of "race" into the discussion. We do have black, white, Asian etc Jews. There is no one race, that claims to be Jewish.

I don't think this is a "racial question" except for those who wish to avoid discussion of religion as a "world view". It is of course the case that some religious groups (e.g. Jews) tend not to intermarry, which could be construed as an aspect of what is meant by "race", but this was encompassed by the general hierarchical racist theories of the Nazis which imposed differential "human" status. Their real problem with "Jewish thinking" was its potential for iconoclastic, trans-national sophistication, and this would tend to be shared by all "Jews" whether "believers" or not, due to common nuances of their socialization and perception of themselves as a particular minority group.

But unless we argue that events such as 9/11 are directly linked to the holocaust, nobody has yet aknowledged that it is religion in general, not in particular, that has affected our lives.

EDITED

My apologies. Having read the last page I retract the last paragraph.

Re: Religion still affects your life whether you believe or


I agree.



I disagree completely.

You are way, way too intelligent to use a word like "only" in a sentence like that, Fresco. I'm astonished that you did. In fact, it caused me to wonder if you had posted this thing more as a "throw something out there and see what the masses do with it" kind of experiment.

Even if the "only" were absent, however, I would disagree with the thrust of the notion.

Seems to me that the only way one can get to deal with it as a "social force" is by dealing with it on a "personal belief" basis.

Societies do not change their minds -- individuals do.

I hope you follow my argument without me fleshing it out completely. If you still feel strongly about your thesis, I'd like to hear more, but my inclination will more than likely be that the "personal belief" is the only avenue toward "societal force" -- so it cannot be dismissed.

Religion in general is all pervasive in most societies. The most rabid religious minds are not happy unless they are meddling with all our lives and interfering with free thinkers. How could we not all be affected by religion?

The affect that religion has on the lives of discerning people is caused simply by the fact that the practitioners insist on treating their beliefs as a spectator sport, complete with stars, statistics, and schedules; and they never acknowledge their losses.
World wars are not unlike the playoffs!

Frank

I was going to put "only" in bold !

The thesis is that religious beliefs are aquired and sustained within a socialization process, not by individual epiphanies or conversions. We are dealing with psychological insecurity, economic competetion between groups and the maintainance of social stratification within groups.
Individual variance has little or no impact on the overall statistical picture or the strength of the forces operating.

Then I will stand by what I said in my earlier post.

The "only" in my opinion was inappropriate -- and, also in my opinion, makes your statement illogical.

I also stand by my contention that only by confronting the "personal" aspect can we ever hope to deal with the problem as a social construct.

I understand where you are coming from -- but I respectfully disagree as noted.

New Haven - thanks for pointing out that oddity in steissd's postings. I agree with you. While there was ethnically-cliched art used when Hitler targeted Jews - he was targetting them as Jews, not as people of a particular ethnic group. He had as much hatred for blond, blue-eyed Polish Jews as he did for brunette Jews.


Your original post has an interesting proposition, fresco. I'm not sure I can agree with you or Frank, with both of you using 'only'. My life experience, and reading, suggests something between those two positions.

Frank

... try using "logic" on the religious Jews in Jerusalem who refuse to recognize the State of Israel because they are waiting for "the Messiah"... try using "logic" to prove Islamic or Judaic circumcision is child mutilation based on sexual totemism...try using "logic" when asking Catholics why young unmarried priests are given the title "Father" and called on for advice on child rearing....

Logic in these matters is an armchair recreation amongst intellectuals !