What do you mean he's drinking again?

I can't tell you guys how good it is for me to know about this - guess I haven't been paying close enough attention.
Whouda thunk I have other drunks right here on A2K!?!?

((((((((((warm bear hug)))))))))))))))

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Being an ex-smoker, it's the same as Chai's restaurant experience. My stepchildren smoke, all three of them, and when they come to the house, we hang out on the patio, have a glass of wine or a beer and I watch them smoke, sometimes enviously, remembering when it was good, taking that first deep drag, and I want one and try to imagine having "just one" but...I don't dare try. I don't dare.

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I'm curious about Mr B's drinking habits and other possible family history of alcoholism. Boomer, children of alcoholics tend to have issues with compulsive habits themselves. Particularly if there is a genetic link for the compulsive behavior. My family is pretty classic when it comes to the drinking patterns of the children of alcoholics. My eldest sister rarely drinks - has an actual disdain for alcohol. My brother was once a heavy drinker and now does not drink at all. My other sister is a lifelong heavy drinker, and I could be one if I wasn't careful. For me, one drink leads to the desire for another which I can give in to or not. If I have a second one, then I will definitely have a third. Then I'll go days without having, or wanting, another drink (I smoke the same way).

I know from tracking my father's family that there are many generations of alcoholics in our gene pool. The statistics say that 50% of children of alcoholics will demonstrate a tendency to alcoholism, 25% will abstain, and the other 25% will drink occasionally (or socially).

Like Mr B, I spent most of my life despising my father's drinking and what it did to my family. Only when I caught myself reaching for a third glass of wine did I have any inkling of his behaviors and what he might have been thinking. It's the hatred that I carried that keeps me paying attention.

Not all alcoholics have a genetic link, but many of them do. I don't know that it makes a difference in one's success in overcoming a return to drinking or indicates a greater likelihood in going back to drinking (Walter?), but it might shed some greater light on why he drinks.

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eoe wrote:

Being an ex-smoker, it's the same as Chai's restaurant experience. ..... enviously, remembering when it was good, taking that first deep drag, and I want one and try to imagine having "just one" but...I don't dare try. I don't dare.

Eeyep. I wouldn't possibly smoke a cigarette now - I don't crave them, really. But I have fond memories of warm sun and fresh breezes mingling with the scent of tobacco, the whiff of sulfur and the first drag.

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snood, we had (or still have) an thread running ... (somewhere)

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Well, JPB asked about that, I'm not sure that it makes a difference or if there's one.

Personally, I would answer that question with a straight 'no': once you became sober, it doesn't make any difference if you are an alcoholic due to "genetic background" or any other.

It's, of course, really difficult if you don't change your habits and/or 'surroundings'.
(At least when you don't join your former drinking lot at your favourite bar - you've a better chance.)

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Friends of Bill Wilson: http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1983&highlight=friends+bill+wilson

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

snood, we had (or still have) an thread running ... (somewhere)

Dang Walter - I just looked, and found I had posted on that thread, starting right after I moved to Texas, in 2003. I don't have much of a memory about some stuff, these days.

But I am glad we can make sort of contact here with others trying to live sober...

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Chai wrote:

In a word, is an alcoholic concern about what they are doing to others feelings when they decide to drink......no.

Sorry to everyone who thinks the person who starts to drink should be overwrought about what he's doing to others, but at that moment, you're really not that important.

Thanks for sharing, Chai.

I thought this bit bore repeating.

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And what's the bit about, I can only control my own actions and let other people be responsible for their actions?

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snood wrote:

Dang Walter - I just looked, and found I had posted on that thread, starting right after I moved to Texas, in 2003. I don't have much of a memory about some stuff, these days.

But I am glad we can make sort of contact here with others trying to live sober...

you're memory must be REALLY bad snood. read from page 46 onwards.

that's why I couldn't figure out why you were sayig "why chai, I never knew"

whatever.

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The one and only time I tried to talk to my father about his drinking, he reminded me quite strongly of just who the parent was in this scenario. In other words, as far as he was concerned, it was not my place to question ANYTHING he chose to do.

Too bad I didn't have the insight back then to realize that although I was powerless in the face of his drinking, I did have the power to change my response to it. That small bit of knowledge could have saved me a river of tears.

How's Mr. B today, Boomerang?

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Chai wrote:

snood wrote:
Dang Walter - I just looked, and found I had posted on that thread, starting right after I moved to Texas, in 2003. I don't have much of a memory about some stuff, these days.

But I am glad we can make sort of contact here with others trying to live sober...

you're memory must be REALLY bad snood. read from page 46 onwards.

that's why I couldn't figure out why you were sayig "why chai, I never knew"

whatever.

I read the last 3 pages. And it isn't hard for me to understand why I didn't remember you as a fellow alcoholic - all we did was argue. I don't have any reason to falsify what I do and don't remember. Jeez.

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eoe wrote:

The one and only time I tried to talk to my father about his drinking, he reminded me quite strongly of just who the parent was in this scenario. In other words, as far as he was concerned, it was not my place to question ANYTHING he chose to do.

Too bad I didn't have the insight back then to realize that although I was powerless in the face of his drinking, I did have the power to change my response to it. That small bit of knowledge could have saved me a river of tears.

How's Mr. B today, Boomerang?

Ha, your father sounds like mine eoe.

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The more I read this thread, the more pissed I get. I'm sure it has to do with my unresolved issues with my father. I'm guessing that's what Mr. B is dealing with. All the **** he went through the first time around was probably put in the back of his brain when dad quit drinking. Now it's all coming back in one mad rush. I can't resolve my issues, my dad is dead. I hope Mr. B can resolve his.

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Swimpy, I've never completely resolved my issues with my father either. He's dead as well. I'm only glad that he and my mother had a number of good years together (after all the children were out of the house) before he passed away. It's interesting to me that, although I developed a platonic relationship with him once he stopped drinking, I never considered that man my father. To me he was my mother's partner. I only ever lived with him as a drunk and that's who my father was to me.

I can imagine how hurt and betrayed Mr B feels (well, no I can't really, but I can guess) and I think I would want my spouse to support me in whatever way I decided to react toward him. Those reactions might take on any number of forms from expressing my anger to shutting him out completely. They might also change from one to another and back again. For Boomer to support whatever roller coaster Mr B is riding on will be difficult, but there isn't much else she can do, IMO.

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boomerang wrote:

I'm temperate weather, a light overcast with little wind. I can sit very, very still while I think things through. I'm a boring movie.

Mr. B is lucky to have you.

Boom, you may call yourself a 'boring movie', but to me, what you described is 'heaven'. Smile

Just from my personal opinion, I can't think of anything more perfect than that when someone is dealing with a past like this and a dad who is going for a second round 30 years later.

Swimpy, I know how you feel.

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Quote:

Sorry to everyone who thinks the person who starts to drink should be overwrought about what he's doing to others, but at that moment, you're really not that important.

And, in my opinion, therein lies the biggest problem.

Mr. B's family probably fits the statistics, one sibling drinks more than she lets on and she probably is alcholic, one sibling has been in AA for about 15 years, one doesn't drink at all and Mr. B, who maybe has a cocktail when he comes home from work and a glass of wine with dinner.

Mr. B is doing okay. Grouchy about his dad but otherwise fine. Thanks for asking eoe.

This thread was starting to piss me off too, Swimpy, which is why I took a step back from it today. Whatever reason caused Mr. Mr. B to start drinking again is not that he is some pathetic, lonely old man, who nobody cares about.

I want to thank each and every one of you for your reply to my question. Clearly it is a complicated issue.

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Yeah, I felt the need to step back too. Another one with some not-quite-resolved issues, obviously.

Glad Mr. B is doing better.

This from eoe jogged forth an idea that I wanted to get down (only just got a minute to do so):

eoe wrote:

Being an ex-smoker, it's the same as Chai's restaurant experience. My stepchildren smoke, all three of them, and when they come to the house, we hang out on the patio, have a glass of wine or a beer and I watch them smoke, sometimes enviously, remembering when it was good, taking that first deep drag, and I want one and try to imagine having "just one" but...I don't dare try. I don't dare.

I'm less aware of smokers turning into monsters because of smoking than alcoholics turning into monsters because of drinking. And I think that's a central disconnect in this discussion. My objection to an alcoholic simply taking a drink -- just that -- is much more how I would react to a smoker who quits and then resumes. Too bad, it's good for your health if you stop, I'll support you if you are able to quit again because I think it's a good idea but if not, it's basically your decision.

For a lot of us, though, the "alcoholic taking a drink again" is an instantaneous leap to "monster acting monstrous" .... and that is not OK. The behaviors unleashed by drink are simply not tolerable in the way that drinking, itself, might be. Being disrespected in ways small and large, facing vehement denials that things that happened actually happened, being the target of apoplectic rage -- all of those are not easy to simply shrug and dismiss as the symptoms of an ill person. At some point, cutting off all contact to prevent the alcoholic from having a chance to inflict pain might be necessary -- but between "the alcoholic has started drinking again" and cutting off all contact, there is a lot of ambiguity and hurt.

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sozobe wrote:

...but between "the alcoholic has started drinking again" and cutting off all contact, there is a lot of ambiguity and hurt.

You got that right.

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What do you mean he's drinking again?

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