What do you mean he's drinking again?

Sturgis wrote:

If it were merely stupidity, alcoholism would cease existing.

Correct. But we aren't talking about "first offenders" here. :wink:

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I know what you're saying Sturgis.

Hmm, let's see if I can articulate this better.

From the alcoholic's side: This stuff isn't likely to matter. If someone says "it's stupid," that's not likely to be enough to make the alcoholic stop.

From the side of the person who loves the alcoholic: Being told that you should just respect a person's stupid decision to do something stupid and hurtful rankles. I think there is a line between debilitating and fruitless attempts to help someone (sure, not a good idea), and just expressing feelings of betrayal etc.

And this discussion only recently went in that direction, by the way. When I said at the beginning that I felt betrayed, I didn't mean that Mr. B should march up to his dad and say, "I feel betrayed." I just said it in terms of helping boomer maybe get a window on how Mr. B was feeling. What to do about Mr. B's dad isn't really even a part of that.

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Gotcha, Sozobe.

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I hear all of you that are saying an alcoholic must make the choice to quit. No duh. (Sorry, didn't mean the sarcasm, much.) Whether you can get the person to stop is not the question here.

What causes a person to start drinking or to go back to drinking after so many years of sobriety is a topic worthy of discussion, however. That's what Mr. B's dealing with, I suspect. The "why" of it all. Can't we discuss the possible why's?

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Yes. The "why" is the confusing part.

When we saw Mr. Mr. B last summer he looked great and appeared very happy. He is getting old but you would be hard pressed to guess it - he's really strikingly handsome and, he looked more fit than he had in years past -- he'd been taking care of himself -- watching his diet, getting a lot of excercise. Mentally the guy is a sharp (and that is VERY sharp) as he has ever been.

I know a lot of his long time friends have been dying and that is taking a toll on his outlook. Maybe the prospect of outliving all of his gang is making him sad.

One of Mr. Mr. B's best friends is also one of my best friends (and therefore Mr. B's best friends (guess how we all met!)). Friend is also a clinical psychologist. Perhaps Mr. B should give Friend a call.....

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I got ahead of myself and forgot to thank Sturgis for sharing his story and especially for this bit of good advice.

Quote:

Anywho... keep one thing in mind for yourself and your husband Boomerang, always...and I mean Always...first and foremost, be good to yourself. The old guy will make it or not, and you can be there if he wants to get it together. Let him know that, but don't spend all your energies and subsequently tears on tending to his needs if he is causing his own problems

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ossobuco wrote:

I don't say this as equivalent, just mentioning, that when I quit smoking finally back in '82, I had it in mind for a few years that when I got real real old, I might start again, as in, what the hell. As it happens, I'm approaching real real old now, and have no further interest, yippee. But if I did decide to buy a pack (what are they now, $5. a pack? multiplied by more packs), I wouldn't be doing it to betray anyone. However stupid, it would be my choice for myself..

I can understand this attitude. If the doctor told me I had six months left to live I might try all kinds of things I've denied myself over the course of my life.

However, I doubt your early smoking left a path of destruction in it's wake like most alcholics leave.

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One topic of discussions I've heard more than once in meetings is about the whole state of mind of the alcoholic who "goes back out" and drinks, especially after a prolonged period of sobriety.

I've heard it said that the miracle of it - the unusual thing is not that the person went back out, but that they were able to not drink for so long. You see, its perspective... To the alcoholic, the most natural thing in the world is to get drunk. What's unnatural is finding happiness without alcohol and losing the obsession with alcohol and being a productive, useful person without alcohol.

So in a way, the correct attitude for the person who cares, upon encountering a person who has thrown away long term sobriety and gotten drunk again, is not "What in the hell were you thinking?", but - "So, you fell down. Just get back up."

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sozobe wrote:

It's stupid -- why not say so?

because if he's truly in the AMA-defined disease process, it's not a 'choice'.

It's as if you'd said that it's stupid that someone is in a manic state - it's part of their bipolar disorder - not a choice.

Some people are strong enough to be able to manage their disease, whether alcoholism or bipolar disorder, well for significant periods of time. Others aren't. The diseases can be truly controlling.

Sometimes the "why" of a relapse is that the disease has become stronger than the individual's ability to fight it.

Is it stupidity that leads someone's cancer to spread?

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I did think of that, and again I know what you're saying. My last post before this one worded it better.

Meanwhile, there simply is an element of choice that makes it more complicated than the cancer analogy.

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snood wrote:

One topic of discussions I've heard more than once in meetings is about the whole state of mind of the alcoholic who "goes back out" and drinks, especially after a prolonged period of sobriety.

I've heard it said that the miracle of it - the unusual thing is not that the person went back out, but that they were able to not drink for so long. You see, its perspective... To the alcoholic, the most natural thing in the world is to get drunk. What's unnatural is finding happiness without alcohol and losing the obsession with alcohol and being a productive, useful person without alcohol.

So in a way, the correct attitude for the person who cares, upon encountering a person who has thrown away long term sobriety and gotten drunk again, is not "What in the hell were you thinking?", but - "So, you fell down. Just get back up."

Wow. That makes so much sense. Thank you, Snood.

It is so hard to seperate the part that is choice -- get in the car, drive to the liquor store, buy the bottle, take it home, pour the drink.... and the part that isn't choice.

One good thing -- it doesn't appear that he's trying to hide it. My sister in law was at his house and came across an empty bottle and a partial bottle. She asked about it, never thinking it was his, but he freely admitted that he was drinking again.

That IS a good thing, isn't it?

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Soz, I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

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My father's an alcoholic and has been all my life.
A year or two ago, I found out that my Father was drinking enough to be falling down again. He's 78, my Mother is 72. My Mother told me about it when I came to visit, not giving me any time to think about it from a distance. (I'm the only one that my Father would listen to, for most of my life) Well, I confronted my Father. We are quite a bit alike in our tempers and loud voices. Well, he almost threw me out of the house for what I was saying about his drinking. (he didn't because he does love me and he would have had to live with the wrath of my Mother)

So, anyways, harsh words were spoken. I spent the next week thinking hard and digging through my emotions. I was hurt first and formost. I was hurt that drinking would be more important to him than I was, than my feelings about his drinking.

Dam, I gotta go.

I was hurt. I was angry. I came to realize that my Father was going to do what my Father wanted to do, know matter how any of us felt. I had the choice to never speak to him again or keep the family "together" and make peace. I might only have a short time left with what was left of my Father. He was never going to make up to me, his pride gets in the way of that sort of thing. I apologized, not for what I said but for the fact that I had hurt his feelings. Peace reigned and my Father still drinks. He's drinking himself to death and yes, it's hard to watch. And harder to live with, like my Mother.

Remember distance is good.
And remember the serenity prayer:
God (Or whoever you like) grant me the courage to change the things I can, the serenity to accept the things I can't and the wisdom to know the difference.
-I don't know if I got the excvatly right but I really have to go now.

Good luck to your husband and to you.
I'll check back later..

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boomerang wrote:

snood wrote:
One topic of discussions I've heard more than once in meetings is about the whole state of mind of the alcoholic who "goes back out" and drinks, especially after a prolonged period of sobriety.

I've heard it said that the miracle of it - the unusual thing is not that the person went back out, but that they were able to not drink for so long. You see, its perspective... To the alcoholic, the most natural thing in the world is to get drunk. What's unnatural is finding happiness without alcohol and losing the obsession with alcohol and being a productive, useful person without alcohol.

So in a way, the correct attitude for the person who cares, upon encountering a person who has thrown away long term sobriety and gotten drunk again, is not "What in the hell were you thinking?", but - "So, you fell down. Just get back up."

Wow. That makes so much sense. Thank you, Snood.

It is so hard to seperate the part that is choice -- get in the car, drive to the liquor store, buy the bottle, take it home, pour the drink.... and the part that isn't choice.

One good thing -- it doesn't appear that he's trying to hide it. My sister in law was at his house and came across an empty bottle and a partial bottle. She asked about it, never thinking it was his, but he freely admitted that he was drinking again.

That IS a good thing, isn't it?

I'm coming to this late but, yes, I think that IS a good thing.

Like others here, I have a lot of history with an alcoholic parent and, from what I can quickly piece together, it's how he's 'chosen' to cope with his current circumstance. Just like a smoker who buys a pack of cigarettes or a junkie who turns to a fix when under extreme stress, an alcoholic might turn to booze when things turn exceptionally rough emotionally. There are a number of unhealthy coping mechanisms. Alcohol wasn't his only option, but unfortunately it's the one he chose.

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Taking a deep breath here, lots and lots, while reading through this thread. Thanks for posting it, btw, Boom, 'cause I think it is a great thread for lots of us even though it was originally started with concern for Mr. B and Mr. Mr. B.

Honestly, even reading this thread brings up very strong feelings in me. I go right back to that place of being a kid/teen - and a drunk mom.

What I want to yell most of all is: WHY IS EVERYONE FOCUSING ON THE ALCOHOLIC?

Not directed at anyone in particular (except maybe people in my past :wink: )......but that about sums up the entire experience of growing up and having an alcoholic parent.

"What about me?" Have I disappeared? Am I no longer worthy? Of attention? Care? Carefree years? Regular worries instead of hoping and being on call to make sure she is ok/not dead/not doing something stupid?

Being a teen with a drunk parent (and no other parent, myself, at the time it impacted me so badly) - I felt 'gone'. Dead. Invisible.

Everything everything everything becomes about the drunk. No disrespect intended when I use the word 'drunk' instead of 'alcoholic' - I perfer that word and find it more suiting.
'Alcoholic' sounds and suits a disease - something out of the person's control, and something that infects from outside and demands outside care.
Sure it does ....but when we are talking about alcoholics who have placed the burden of grown-up disease and responsibilities on a kid/teen : that to me allows for the word 'drunk'.

What I am saying? Boom, if Mr. B IS being triggered off to a time when he was younger and less powerful and needed his dad and his dad was too drunk and placed all this horrible burden on him - all I can say here is he might be feeling that Invisible Person again.

What helps me, now, when something happens with my mom, a bender?

Someone to hold me. Hug me. Listen to me. Let me be angry, sad, ANYTHING without worrying about how this will throw someone else into a tailspin of destruction.

Has anyone else ever felt that? I'm sure. That ever looming feeling that if I do this or that or allow myself to do - any number of things, depends on the circumstance and the alcoholic involved, so much - but, that something horrible will happen.

Mr. B deserves and needs the attention.

Mr. Mr. B is old enough to be left to his own devices. That may sound cold, but it really ain't. You can love the guts out of someone and yet have to just leave them be self destructive asses on their own time.

The whole family dynamic of circling him in a non-productive way hits a big old note with me.

All I know to do there is to let them - family, whoever wants to - circle on their own time too.

I do hope you and Mr. B find some peace out of it all.

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Well, I might have hurt people with my smoking, my husband who lived with me for a long time for example... but not in the immediately extreme way that brings up such pain and suffering in others as does alcohol wrought stuff. And, the addictive qualities have, no doubt, different aspects. Which is why I said that I knew they were not equivalent. But the idea that in one's old age one could have a cig or a drink... both possibly are reasonable at any given moment to an ex smoker or a long time sober alcoholic.

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Actually I think this thread has not been all about the drunk. There is a lot of anguish and anger here by people who have dealt with drunks, reasonably so. The elder drunk/ex sober person's pov, if any, has not gotten that much mention until fairly far along.

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The thread has stirred up a lot of emotion. I know it has in me. I remember when my dad started drinking again. I was 17. I wasn't even born when he quit the first time. I didn't know who this guy was. He turned into a monster.

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Swimpy wrote:

I hear all of you that are saying an alcoholic must make the choice to quit. No duh. (Sorry, didn't mean the sarcasm, much.) Whether you can get the person to stop is not the question here.

What causes a person to start drinking or to go back to drinking after so many years of sobriety is a topic worthy of discussion, however. That's what Mr. B's dealing with, I suspect. The "why" of it all. Can't we discuss the possible why's?

Quite honestly swimpy, if you were to ask someone why they went back to drinking after a long sobriety, more than likely the answer would be "I don't know" and he/she would be telling the absolute truth.

What sturgis said so well about having gone through more heartache sober than he had ever gone through while drinking is so spot on. I would bet the same is true for Walter and Snood, who have shared here, and it certainly is true for myself.

See, (and this is an over generalization) sober alcoholics in general are able to handle the biggies in life, the breakups, loss of jobs, ill health, etc., but what catches you up are the things you never would think of...It's a hot day and you're mowing the lawn, and someone hands you a beer. The damn washing machine breaks down, like I said before, the daisies didn't bloom. Usually though, it's "I don't know"

Story: In 20 years about a million new drinks have been invented that I have never heard of, don't know what's in them, don't even know what they look like. I don't even notice if someone else is having a drink.
A few months ago I was in Houston on business, and a large group of us were going to have dinner together. It'd been a long day, it was late for dinner, past 9pm and for me, I just wanted to enjoy some company, eat and hit the rack.
The person next to me ordered some drink, and when it came, the person across from me asked "what that? It looks pretty."

I don't know what he said was all in it, pomegranites (which I love) I seem to remember, and some kind of liquer I'd never heard of. Everyone in the immediate vacinity took a sip, said "WOW" and they all ordered one.
I'm sitting there, after all these years, thinking "wow I love pomegranites, and everone else is having one. It looks so tasty, and everyone is saying how good it is"

While sitting there talking and laughing with the others, I was suddenly feeling SO sorry for myself that I couldn't even have one little drink like everyone else, one that obviously tasty and probably wouldn't even effect me. I was feeling deprived becasue "I never get to try any of this new stuff, I might as well be living in the last century for all I know about what people are drinking nowadays."

I had just finished a great day, was with co-workers, some of which I counted as friends, I was waiting for a delicious meal, and on top of everything, I was getting paid to be there. In other words, life was grand.

And there I sat, this close to saying, "I'll have one of those fancy pomegranite drinks please".

What stopped me? It wasn't the thought of my loved ones concerns about me and what would happen if I picked up, that's for sure.

In a word, is an alcoholic concern about what they are doing to others feelings when they decide to drink......no.

Sorry to everyone who thinks the person who starts to drink should be overwrought about what he's doing to others, but at that moment, you're really not that important.

I know, sounds shitty and mean and unconcerned and selfish....but that's the way it is.

can I have an amen, you other drunks?

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Yes, I hear you Osso.

I was just expressing myself in my awkward way.

My point was that being a kid with an alcoholic parent made me feel neglected.

Oh really, the truth is there was neglect that was real. It had a lasting impact on me even as a grown up on her own and loved.

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What do you mean he's drinking again?

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