What do you mean he's drinking again?

Yeah. He's just some old man with nothing to live for, who no one cares about, whose choices aren't causing anyone any heartache.

Let's just leave him alone and hope he figures it out.

boomer called her FIL Mr. B. B.

so that's what I called him too.

re Mr. B, unfortunatley he going to have to accept the Mr. B. B. makes his own decisions.

My brother died at 34 by purely drinking himself to death....I had been sober at the time 2 or so years, and wanted nothing more in my heart to "make him stop" or "make him decide to stop"

But....all I could do was be there and make myself available.

Others tried to "make" him stop by forcing several hospitalizations and rehabs on him, threats, firing, divorcing, on and on (and on and on).

I just had to accept he was going to do what he wanted.

I very good friend of mine nearly literally died under my eyes.

I've tried everything - acting professionally, very unprofessionally and even illegally ... until I had to accept that she didn't want stop drinking.

(And sorry, I didn't want to imply that boomer's husband was the person we're talking about here.)

Walter said just this though:



So it seemed like there was some confusion.

Obviously it has to be Mr. B's dad's decision. I don't think that necessarily translates to everyone around him sitting on their hands and shrugging at any resultant bad behavior, though, unless they've consciously decided to draw an emotional line in the sand.

I think that's especially true when it comes to depression. Depression is often treatable in a way alcoholism isn't.

Anyway, I see both sides of this; I get the idea that Mr. B doesn't need to feel like it's his responsibility to fix the situation. But I don't think that means that it's a bad idea for him to recommend that his dad see a doctor, if he so desires. So he recommends it. What's the big deal?

Mr. B's dad has already shown that he's exhibited extraordinarily poor judgement in choosing to go back to drinking, and has forfeited a certain amount of tiptoeing respect, IMO.

Noted, Walter.

I do agree with the idea that it's dangerous for Mr. B to take on the savior role -- not sure if he's considering it, though.

More as an aside:

about 20 years ago, during researches for my thesis, I noted that clinics only just had started (here in Germany) to treat 65+ aged alcoholics.

I know from councelling and self-help groups that elderly alcoholics are .... very difficult to handle.

Until I know more about how his behavior is affecting others, I'm silent on what anyone could or should do or not do. The fellow is nearly eighty, he can have a drink if he wants. He may or may not be depressed, he might even be celebrating. Or he may be selfcomforting to the point of self destruction, his business.

OK, I understand it's likely he's in a tailspin and this is or will be affecting others, and if it is, I can see suggesting he consider seeing a physician - but the whole tone here about how selfish he is seems quite odd to me, though I haven't looked back to doublecheck if selfish is the word used. He may be self-absorbed, but why not?

While I express all this, I don't mean I'm not concerned about the sadness, anger, and stress this is for Mr. B and others...
I just don't get the condemnation vibe over pages..

Thank you Soz for helping to clarify. In my original post, I asked boomer questions relating to the relationship between Mr. B and his dad. I didn't tell her to tell him to tell his dad, "Hey buddy, you're depressed!" If Mr. B or his siblings have the kind of relationship where they can say to Dad, "We're concerned about you. Are you alright? Would you consider seeing a doctor?"

I don't think it's fair to assume that it was his decision to chuck 30 years of sobriety and nobody has the right to be concerned.

Granted, if all attempts meet with a stone wall, then fine. He's made his choice.

My sister did the same thing. Shut herself up in her house, refused to acknowledge that she was an alcoholic, pushed everyone away who tried to help and drank until she was dead. Her daughter found her sprawled out on the floor.

More than likely, Mr. B knows that there isn't anything he can do to force/persuade/cajole his father to stop drinking. He had no control before and he has none now. All he has this go around is the grace of distance. Thank God for small favors.

I don't know a ton about alcoholics, but from what I do know, an alcoholic choosing to drink again after being sober for a long time is much different from someone without that disease choosing to have a drink. I have nothing against a guy drinking occasionally, in and of itself. No matter what age he is. The word "alcoholic" instantly puts it in a different realm, though, I think.

For those who are concerned there are groups like Al-Anon or other, professional help.

No-one can help an alsoholic besides that person himself.

That's one bitter truth.

The other is that those who drink actually don't feel bad (in those moments) but only those who are concerned.

I often wondered about that, Walter. Is the drinker/drug addict/foodaholic so absorbed by the substance that they honestly cannot see the pain they cause or is it that when there's a bottle/needle/cupcake available, they simply don't care?

Soz, I know that, I get that he is an alcoholic. Some folks close to me still go to AA every day, or almost every day. However, if he has chosen to drink, he is not a child - unless he has dementia, then I could see intervention of the more forceable kind.

Hmm. It's stupid for an alcoholic to start drinking again. It's precisely the fact that he's an adult that makes me think he shouldn't be protected. It's stupid -- why not say so?

If he's doing fine, it's stupid but he's gotten away with it... for now. If he's not doing fine, it's just plain stupid.

That may be, you think so, I think so. But the whole area of words like stupid, weak, selfish, betrayal is not what that adult is thinking about his own behavior, at least I don't assume so -- it is what those left to deal with it, clearly for years, feel about it when the long sober person makes his or her choice. That person isn't thinking, I'm betraying my children right now.

or at least I don't think so. Maybe afterwards, in regret.

As Walter has indicated there are places such as Al-anon for the family of the alcoholic. The alcoholic himself (in this case the aging gentleman) must come to his own personal bottom floor of hell before he will stop. No screaming or threats or anything else will get through to him. I know a man who had a liver transplant and he went right back to drinking even though it was clearly a death sentence.

As to why a person drinks, each person has their own reason. When I was getting drunk daily, I did it for good, bad and other. In other words I just drank, I did not know how to stop. If it rainbed I drank, if it snowed, if the sun was out, cold day, hot day, happy or sad. glad or mad, I kept drinking. Give me a job...time to drink. Take a job...time to drink. Salary increase? Drink. Death? Drinl. Birth? Drink.

It wasn't always a matter of not wanting to stop, at times I wanted to. I just couldn't. How to stop will depend to a large degree on the person wanting to stop. Being ready to face whatever life is going to serve up without running away from it. I have faced more heartache and pain without booze than I ever did with the booze; but the big difference is I can at least communicate clearly to people when I am not inebriated. When I was intoxicated people saw me and ran the other way. I hid in the shadows so as not to be seen...clearly shame and humiliation were not going to get me to put down my precious bottle.


People return to drinking after many years of happiness without the booze; their reasons are varied and are many. My father was an alcoholic, and in the end took his own life. He had at one time been sober and his inability to regain that, most likely contributed to his death. When he wasn't drunk, he was a sweet man. Drunk, he was mean spirited, paranoid, and unreliable. When I sobered up I realized we really were the same. Anywho... keep one thing in mind for yourself and your husband Boomerang, always...and I mean Always...first and foremost, be good to yourself. The old guy will make it or not, and you can be there if he wants to get it together. Let him know that, but don't spend all your energies and subsequently tears on tending to his needs if he is causing his own problems.

<I'm not saying he should be protected, am basically agreeing with Chai using other words. Also agree with Sturgis, Walter.>

An alcoholic cannot help him or her self. The booze once introduced into the bloodstream has an effect upon the alcoholic which it does not have upon the non-alcoholic. Ask an alcoholic about their reaction to seeing a person only take a few sips of wine and leave the rest...the alcoholic will cite the waste and a number of other reasons why the wine should be consumed. The non-alcoholic will stare with a confused look and have no idea why it would matter if half a glass of wine is left untouched. It's not stupidity as such.

The A.M.A. refers to alcoholism as a disease and cites the following reasons:
Alcoholism, also known as "alcohol dependence," is a disease that includes four symptoms:

Craving: A strong need, or compulsion, to drink.
Loss of control: The inability to limit one's drinking on any given occasion.
Physical dependence: Withdrawal symptoms, such as nausea, sweating, shakiness, and anxiety, occur when alcohol use is stopped after a period of heavy drinking.
Tolerance: The need to drink greater amounts of alcohol in order to "get high."



If it were merely stupidity, alcoholism would cease existing.

It is stupid - but just shows that the definition - namely alcoholism can't be cured - correct.

And it's plain stupid. (Reminds me of the CEO of a rather huge health insurance who started drinking again when his company had to merge with one from the other county: he nearly lost everything he had.)

I don't say this as equivalent, just mentioning, that when I quit smoking finally back in '82, I had it in mind for a few years that when I got real real old, I might start again, as in, what the hell. As it happens, I'm approaching real real old now, and have no further interest, yippee. But if I did decide to buy a pack (what are they now, $5. a pack? multiplied by more packs), I wouldn't be doing it to betray anyone. However stupid, it would be my choice for myself..