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Homosexuality v. Christianity -- A FEW QUESTIONS:

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Sep, 2003 02:42 pm
cavfancier wrote:
Wait, I feel a new thread coming on...

"Double Standards: Exclusive to secularists, or just the One True Religion?"



Start it and they will come!
0 Replies
 
cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Sep, 2003 02:48 pm
Hmm....twist me arm....Laughing
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maliagar
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Sep, 2003 03:08 pm
Craven de Kere wrote:
In your assertion that Catholicism is the one true religion you make the fatal error of trying to assert empirically that which is not empirical.


Wrong, as (almost) always.

Funny how you claim to care about empirical evidence when by now it's clear that your strengths and weaknesses are rooted in your excessive attachment to the purely speculative approach to issues that are heavily historical...

Every time you've attempted to "substantiate" your views with actual extermal evidence, you've put your foot into your mouth (obviously, you're not used to assessing the relative value of historical evidence - as in the Bishop Usher case). And you've even dared to openly refuse to bring specific evidence on specific issues (which shouldn't be surprising, given your lack of skill in dealing with historical data).

[In all fairness, other fellow secularists-atheists have done the exact same thing].

The ability to speculate and think of different scenarios is useful, but is hardly decisive when we talk about processes, facts, and discussions that are outside (and alien to) your brain. The skeleton of naked logic needs the flesh provided by facts as well as the ability to place them in a larger interpretative framework.

It's easier to be a sniper than an architect. And to build a case you need raw materials, which are provided by the outside world... not your very own (and overworked) speculative mind. In our case, the evidence ought to come from the real history of Western institutions and ideas (not the biased, ideological, and prejudiced "history" we get through the dominant culture - public schools & colleges, the media, the "cool" newspapers, etc.).

Cool
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Sep, 2003 03:20 pm
While the moderators are having nervous breakdowns (verified by our resident armchair psychiatrist and armchair Pope) maliagar says he doesn't drink. Then what on Earth is his excuse? The sunglassed Smiley could indicate he's cool and/or high on the drugs.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Sep, 2003 03:33 pm
maliagar,

Where have i not substantiated an argument? please substantiate that accusation and I will rectify. It is, otherwise, just another ad hominem as per usual.

Empirical evidence is an oxymoron. I do not claim to care about it. The above was an obvious reversal of a fallacious argument you frequently make.

You claim Catholicism is teh "one true religion" yet have no evidence to support this.

just as you decry the lack of "empirical" evidence to debunk it you must also consider that you lack "empirical evidence" to debunk other religions that make the same "one true religion" claim.

so when you make that claim you are gulty of many of the things you accuse theists of.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Sep, 2003 03:39 pm
maliagar's quote: "And you've even dared to openly refuse to bring specific evidence on specific issues (which shouldn't be surprising, given your lack of skill in dealing with historical evidence)." maliagar, What "historical evidence" are you talking about? The bible? The history of the Catholic Church? Your history? Aren't they all and the same? Based on fiction called the bible, atrocities in the name of the only church (the Crusades and the Inquisition), revised interpretations of the fictional book called the bible to meet the current requirements of science, and the priests of the church still guilty of paedophilia and crimes against children, discrimination against gays (of which there are many priests in your church), and trying to call the kettle black? Where's your decency and common sense? Or does your church founded by god demand you to ignore all negative aspects of your church?
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Sep, 2003 03:44 pm
maliagar will be back with evidence to support the assertion that I openly refuse to provide evidence. It would be glaringly hypocritcal if he weren't to do so.

Just a matter of time. Kinda like that train.
0 Replies
 
maliagar
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Sep, 2003 03:45 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
maliagar, What "historical evidence" are you talking about? The bible? The history of the Catholic Church? Your history? Aren't they all and the same?


Uh??? Rolling Eyes

No, Cicerone. I'm not a biblical patriarch, judge, prophet, or apostle.

I haven't been been a pope, cardinal, archbishop, bishop, presbyter, or deacon... (acolyte and lector yes, but they don't usually appear on the history books).

Unless I'm a reincarnated prophet or pope... but hey, we don't believe in reincarnation.

So the Bible, the history of the Church, and my personal story are not the same.

Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Sep, 2003 03:49 pm
maliagar, You still haven't answered the question: what "historical evidence" are you talking about?
0 Replies
 
maliagar
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Sep, 2003 04:22 pm
Rolling Eyes

Here's a free lesson in providing evidence.

You want proof that you weaseled out when it came to substantiating your own claims? Start in the following link:

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=326473#326473

If you want more detail, you can go here:

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=323402#323402
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=323426#323426

Check this one:
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=323434#323434 :

Craven wrote:
What on earth is the point? Obscure names that can't be researched does nothing to prove that Christians are more charitable. If I gave you names of secular humanists I have known who have not the fame of a Catholic celebrity what help would that be? They'd just be names to you.


Yes, you know thousands of cases. So I said several times: Bring one to this forum. I'll trust you. Just tell me what he or she did. But you didn't bring one of the thousands of cases you know.

Need more proof? Go here:

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=323456#323456
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=323487#323487
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=324940#324940
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=325119#325119
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=325143#325143
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=326196#326196
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=326273#326273

And your excuse for not mentioning ONE NAME was: "I don't have any heroes."

And the thousands of cases you claimed to know? "They are there, but since they are not celebrities, they can't be mentioned." Rolling Eyes

That's how you avoided to provide one example for your bold claim.

Cool
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Sep, 2003 04:25 pm
maliagar wrote:

Yes, you know thousands of cases. So I said several times: Bring one to this forum. I'll trust you. Just tell me what he or she did. But you didn't bring one of the thousands of cases you know.

And your excuse for not mentioning ONE NAME was: "I don't have any heroes."

And the thousands of cases you claimed to know? "They are there, but since they are not celebrities, they can't be mentioned." Rolling Eyes

That's how you avoided to provide one example for your bold claim.

Cool


Maliagar,

A list of links does not, in itself, evidence make. You are incorrect. I did provide a name (see this link):
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=326512&highlight=jos%E9#326512

Maybe I should have qualified it as evidence that is not false?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Sep, 2003 04:28 pm
Good old, dependable maliagar wrote:
So the Bible, the history of the Church, and my personal story are not the same.

I've always deeply enjoyed the richness and variety to be found in fiction. Just 'cause a story ain't true don't make it bad. The myths of theology are every bit as entertaining as say the myths of Camelot, or of Asgaard, Olympia, or The National Enquirer ... great fun all ... as long as you keep in mind they're myths.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Sep, 2003 04:42 pm
Well maliagar, you tried to provide "evidence" that i did not provide a single name of a secular humanist.

I demonstrated that you were wrong (I had in fact provided a name at your request).

What now? Your argument was demosntrated as false again. does this mean we are back to ad hominems and running?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Sep, 2003 04:47 pm
Copied from above: "Good old, dependable maliagar wrote: So the Bible, the history of the Church, and my personal story are not the same."

??? So, the obvious question becomes, "what do you base your religion on, maliagar?"
0 Replies
 
cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Sep, 2003 05:00 pm
Technically, maliagar's statement is correct, because I have a feeling he is not that old, and he is clearly not Jesus. So....we get back to c.i.'s statement: What is it that you do stand for exactly, and why? Also, can you explain it to us peons without smug attitude and excessive emoticons? You are very knowledgeable maliagar, and when calm, you bring up relevant, interesting points on religion, which people here are actually genuinely interested in, but man, you get high-strung....you did say you loved drama, I suppose I should have known. Why not share a bit about yourself, rather than just spout circular rhetoric?
0 Replies
 
maliagar
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Sep, 2003 05:21 pm
Craven de Kere wrote:
A list of links does not, in itself, evidence make.

Needing to hold on to something??? Nobody said URLs are in themselves evidence... But they bring you to the evidence (if you left-click on them... with your mouse or other comparable device... on a web browser... on your computer screen... ).

Craven wrote:
You are incorrect. I did provide a name (see this link):
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=326512&highlight=jos%E9#326512


Let's see, Craven:

The discussion on Christian and secular saints started on Monday Aug 18, 2003, 4:56 am (see: http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=320041#320041 )

Then, on Tuesday Aug 19, 2003 7:56 pm you said:

Creaven wrote:
There have been many people who dedicated their entire lives to charity. I personally know thousands.


(see http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=322238#322238 )

Then, on Wednesday Aug 20, 2003 5:01 pm I said:

Maliagar wrote:
Tell ya what: I'll come up with the names of unknown (to you) Mother Teresa types. Hope you do the same with all those secular saints that haven't been so lucky as to be discovered by a BBC journalist...


(see http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=323426#323426 )

During that Wednesday, the following Thursday, and Friday you spent your messages looking for rationales not to mention a name and a story.

On Friday Aug 22, 2003 1:46 pm, tired of three days of your weaseling out ("I know thousands but I don't turn them into saints"; "I don't idolize them"; "I don't turn them into icons"; "I don't have any heroes"; "They are all around us but are not celebrities") I provided a clear summary of the discussion and moved to other subjects.

(see http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=326473#326473 )

Now it turns out that later on, when I was already engaged in other pursuits, you ended up graciously deciding to mention a name (belatedly). The name appears on an edited message (Friday Aug 22, 2003 2:07 pm)
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=326512#326512

I just read it and, of course, you did not bother to explain in what sense this person was comparable to Mother Teresa.

Ergo, you did refuse to bring relevant evidence, and looked for all kinds of justifications for this refusal. And when the discussion was over, you mentioned a name as if it were EVIDENCE of a secular Mother Teresa.

So let this excercise show you the difficulties you have when it comes to bringing relevant evidence, and assessing its relative value.

Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Sep, 2003 05:24 pm
Maliagar,

All the wordplay in the world will not help you out of this. It's not my fault that you were busy elsewhere when I answered and did not see it. It still makes your contention false.

You claimed that I never gave you a name. I did. Your "evidence" was false. :wink:
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Sep, 2003 05:26 pm
maliagar, Why secular? Why not just non-Catholics, the only church god recognizes?
0 Replies
 
maliagar
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Sep, 2003 05:30 pm
---

How convenient, kid! Laughing

Weaseling out again, in the face of overwhelming evidence...

Thanks for proving my point yet one more time: speculation and reinterpretation are your only weapons... clever word play, if you will.

You're not well equipped for these discussions. You have only one set of tools, and keep pretending that everything is a nail for your flimsy hammer.

Actual data? Not you. And since it supports other points of view, better to broom it under the rug...

Laughing

Craven de Kere wrote:
Maliagar,

All the wordplay in the world will not help you out of this. It's not my fault that you were busy elsewhere when I answered and did not see it. It still makes your contention false.

You claimed that I never gave you a name. I did. Your "evidence" was false. :wink:
0 Replies
 
cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Sep, 2003 05:31 pm
maliagar, I am wondering if you also record your phone calls at this point, but moving on in a serious manner....I read the post, and I think the point was Jose's humanistic motivation to help others, not born of religion necessarially. Also, I believe it was meant to illustrate that actually helping others transcends the motivation. As far as comparing Jose to Mother Teresa, it's an argument of "My dad can beat up your dad" and it denigrates the good deeds on both sides.
0 Replies
 
 

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