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Homosexuality v. Christianity -- A FEW QUESTIONS:

 
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Aug, 2003 12:33 pm
Just remember, Tartarin, a wheel squeeks for a reason; eventually there comes a point further lubrication fails to prevent the bearing from siezing and the wheel falls off the axle. Re-machining can be a necessary part of maintenance and repair, ya know. Then too, design load capacity has to be considered, as well: sometimes ya gotta re-scale the whole thing to handle the new cargo.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Aug, 2003 12:39 pm
Lubrication is maybe an unfortunate choice of words. Laughing
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Aug, 2003 12:40 pm
If it works, don't fix it -- an approach that only means anything if the person who says it is working knows what the Hell they're talking about.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Aug, 2003 01:03 pm
Lightwizard wrote:
Lubrication is maybe an unfortunate choice of words. Laughing

Ack-shully, it was carefully considered and quite deliberate Twisted Evil
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Aug, 2003 01:14 pm
Ohh, I know what you guys are talkin' about!
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Aug, 2003 01:21 pm
I wasn't sure if Timber could be that twisted. I was wrong. Laughing ( Twisted Evil )
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Aug, 2003 03:51 pm
Timber, you remind me of my father who was always stunned that his kids seldom pursued a project or game he'd given us advice about. He would analyze all the what-might-happens-if and then stare at us as we put away the game, tools, whatever we'd planned, in total discouragement!! ('I don't know what's wrong with my children. They never FINISH ANYTHING THEY START!" "But dear, don't you think you may have discouraged them?" "Nonsense. I was being helpful."....)
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Aug, 2003 05:50 pm
You know me, Tartarin ... always glad to help Laughing
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Aug, 2003 06:04 pm
Now -- go whip the little buggers, Timber!!
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CerealKiller
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Aug, 2003 09:13 pm
Just an aside/ramble. Not relevant to the current thread, but something I wanted to share.

It doesn't suprise me that so much should be made about literal passages in the bible, when most Western culture has yet to truly assmiliate what is essentially Eastern mysticism. Or even understand what such assimilation might mean.

Life is full of contradictions, and it would be foolish to assume that one could simply create a closed system and order the universe rationally from within. There are many things that have yet to be understood fully because we lack the proper framework to observe and, later, to assess. In most such cases, we even lack the language to describe accurately what we see.

But just because we cannot count it, does not mean that we cannot know it. Integrating such complexity in one's life is not demaning or in any way an admission of a kind. Take a more Continental view and consider that "everything is and is not, for everything is fluid, is constantly changing, constantly coming into being and passing away."
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Aug, 2003 07:11 am
Spot on, Cereal!
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Aug, 2003 07:19 am
Right -- to those who have their leaden boots on and refuse to move forward, give them a couple of stiff drinks and watch them fall over flat on their faces.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Aug, 2003 07:49 am
CerealKiller

You are assuming we are talking about whether or not the passage from the Bible is true or not.

That was never my intention -- and never a part of this discussion.

But I have been discussing the implications of the passage for people who assume it is true -- and it is the word of GOD.

That is something that can be discsussed rationally.

But since you have raised a few interesting points (and since Maliagar is still absent) -- perhaps we could discuss them.

You mentioned:

Quote:
It doesn't suprise me that so much should be made about literal passages in the bible, when most Western culture has yet to truly assmiliate what is essentially Eastern mysticism. Or even understand what such assimilation might mean.


COMMENT:

What would it mean? Of what value do you see Eastern mysticism to be? What part of Eastern mysticism do you see as superior to Christianity, for instance? Why do you see adopting (or just understanding) Eastern "beliefs" -- as being different from sticking with Western "beliefs?"



Quote:
But just because we cannot count it, does not mean that we cannot know it. Integrating such complexity in one's life is not demaning or in any way an admission of a kind. Take a more Continental view and consider that "everything is and is not, for everything is fluid, is constantly changing, constantly coming into being and passing away."


Care to flesh that out a bit. Perhaps give a few examples.
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CerealKiller
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Aug, 2003 10:07 am
Frank Apisa wrote:
.

COMMENT:

What would it mean? Of what value do you see Eastern mysticism to be? What part of Eastern mysticism do you see as superior to Christianity, for instance? Why do you see adopting (or just understanding) Eastern "beliefs" -- as being different from sticking with Western "beliefs?"

Eastern mysticism requires an irrational leap of faith. In Zen Buddhism for example one's intuition is pitted against one's reason. The Hindus consider the mind to have all the stability and perception of a "drunken monkey" while the Hare Krishnas refer to the mind as a "garbage pail." All this may seem contradictory to the Western mind, and it is.

What this might mean is one day we may be required to abandon our perception of what we think we know(hence give up everything) and take this leap of faith in an entity we don't understand.


Quote:
But just because we cannot count it, does not mean that we cannot know it. Integrating such complexity in one's life is not demaning or in any way an admission of a kind. Take a more Continental view and consider that "everything is and is not, for everything is fluid, is constantly changing, constantly coming into being and passing away."


Care to flesh that out a bit. Perhaps give a few examples.


- For example humans are ever evolving. Look at a picture of youself today and compare it to one taken 10 years ago,20 years ago. I'm quite sure you're not the same person today as you were then. While you preach agnosticism today because it rationally makes sense to you, 20 years from now you might be singing a different tune. What seems irrational today, may be very rational at some other point in time.


** OOPS looks like I screwed this post up. Read inside the white for my response to your first set of questions Frank.
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Aug, 2003 05:04 am
CerealKiller

Quote:
What this might mean is one day we may be required to abandon our perception of what we think we know(hence give up everything) and take this leap of faith in an entity we don't understand.


With regard to Ultimate Reality Questions -- I already acknowledge that I do not know -- and that my perceptions may be flawed.

I see absolutely no reason to take any "leaps of faith" -- but if you do, I wish you the best of luck with your leap.

I intend to stick with "I do not know -- and I do not see enough unambiguous evidence to point me in any particular direction" for now -- and if this ever changes, I suspect it will change because of something so universal, everyone will change at the same time -- because the answer will be specific.

I don't think that will ever happen -- but that is just a guess.
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CerealKiller
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Aug, 2003 11:24 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:

I intend to stick with "I do not know -- and I do not see enough unambiguous evidence to point me in any particular direction" for now -- and if this ever changes, I suspect it will change because of something so universal, everyone will change at the same time -- because the answer will be specific.

I don't think that will ever happen -- but that is just a guess.


I know exactly where you are coming from because I once held similar views. I have come to learn that although men and women are commanded to believe and will be held accountable for unbelief, genuine faith is never exclusively a matter of human decision "And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." These are Jesus' words recorded in John 6:65. If you find this truth hard to take you are not alone in the very next verse it says: "From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him (The language indicates that the abandonment was decisive and final)." John 6:66. The truth is no one can know the truth unless God "allows" him/her to, yet we are still accountable for our actions. One thing you that you said is so true its scary: " I suspect it will change because of something so universal, everyone will change at the same time -- because the answer will be specific". One day you (and everyone else) will know and affirm the truth: "Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name; That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Phillipians 2:9-11. The entire intelligent universe is called to worship Jesus Christ as Lord. This mandate includes the angels in heaven, the spirits of the redeemed, obedient believers on earth, the disobedient rebels on earth, demons and lost humanity in hell. The Greek word for “confess” means “to acknowledge,” “affirm,” or “agree” which is what everyone will eventually do in response to Christ’s lordship, willingly and blessedly or unwillingly and painfully.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Aug, 2003 11:57 pm
Well, CerealKiller, if and when that universally recognizeable, unambiguous, indisputable something should come to pass, then cool. It has not yet, nor, despite the assertions of a particular collection of religionist sects, is there reason to assume it may. A universal, absolute truth by definition cannot be conditional ... evident to some but not to others, for instance. Would you care to attempt to delineate, in purely secular, academic terms, WITHOUT REFERENCE TO JUDAEO-CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURE, the difference between "Faith" and "Superstition"?
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CerealKiller
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Aug, 2003 02:33 am
timberlandko wrote:
Well, CerealKiller, if and when that universally recognizeable, unambiguous, indisputable something should come to pass, then cool. It has not yet, nor, despite the assertions of a particular collection of religionist sects, is there reason to assume it may. A universal, absolute truth by definition cannot be conditional ... evident to some but not to others, for instance. Would you care to attempt to delineate, in purely secular, academic terms, WITHOUT REFERENCE TO JUDAEO-CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURE, the difference between "Faith" and "Superstition"?



Fuzzy as the distinction between superstition and faith may seem to be, I'll give it a shot.

My short answer is superstition is fear based and egocentrically driven, in other words I should obey God because there is something in it for me.
Faith puts God first and isn't selfish. It doesn't ask how can God be relevant to me,it asks how can I be relevant to God. It acts out of confidence not fear.

Religiously tinged superstition, for example, is chiefly concerned with making God relevant to me, to come up with ways to get what I want from God. That may be by impressing God with my goodness, or persuading God with my pleading, or obligating God through gifts and sacrifices, but superstitious hope is, that something like that will “work.” Faith, instead of being about God’s relevance to me, is about my relevance to God. It doesn’t have to do with how God can be made to fit my purposes, but rather, how and where do I fit God’s purposes.

Prayer then, in superstitious religion, is done in hopes of changing the mind of God, informing God of what really needs to be done that God hasn’t gotten around to doing or had forgotten about. Prayer as a part of faith has overwhelmingly to do with recognizing, and with grappling with the need for change in me.

Religious superstition is typically pursued out of a wish to make life more secure, predictable, and nice. Very much in contrast, faith (at least as revealed in Jesus), is an appetite for living life as a “raw adventure:” open-ended, dynamic, unpredictable and out on the edge. In other words, while religious superstition hopes to find a divine way to “keep the boat from rocking,” faith, at least in part, is a kind of grace and trust that makes one able to function in a “rocking boat.“

Similarly, religious superstition is often driven by the hope that there is a religious gimmick or strategy by which to dodge most sorrow and trouble, and/or will furnish a mystic anesthetic so that we won’t much feel what trouble or sorrow we cannot avoid. Here too, faith is almost the opposite. It is the conviction that there is real work to be done in the dark valleys: good to be unfolded, meaning to be discovered, growth to happen. It’s not, mind you, that the person of faith likes to suffer any more than do the superstitious. When it is there, though, they embrace it as a valid part of living rather than blindly enduring it as a divine insult or a cosmic injustice, seen as an indication that God or religion or the cosmos has failed them.

Superstitious religiousness makes a life of perpetual cautiousness--as if we were walking across some kind of mine field. It is the religious version of “If you step on a crack, you’ll break your mother’s back.” In this case, “stepping on a crack” would mean things like having religious doubts, questioning traditions, not crossing every religious “t” and failing to dot every religious “i.” It is that god-awful picture in which God is always poised to punish minutiae that’s been left undone. Real faith, meanwhile, knows and trusts God as being infinitely larger, far more open, and genuinely excited about the searchings, explorings, and adventures of our minds and spirits, always working with us, not as our adversary.

I have the same religous doubts and struggle with all the same biblical contradictions as all of you, but I listen and live by my faith and it says wait on the Lord and lean not on your own understanding.
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maliagar
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Aug, 2003 12:09 pm
timberlandko wrote:
A universal, absolute truth by definition cannot be conditional ... evident to some but not to others, for instance.


Since no truth has gone uncontested by some (even in such fields as pure mathematics), this would "prove" that there are no universal truths. This assumes that human understanding cannot be impaired by internal or external conditions. This assumes that a "universal truth" stands or falls not by itself, but by its being acknowledged by everyone without exceptions. One thing is to say that a universal truth is, by definition, valid for everyone, and quite another to say that everyone sees this. I think we all have come across people who will question the simplest and most evident of truths.

Quote:
Would you care to attempt to delineate, in purely secular, academic terms, WITHOUT REFERENCE TO JUDAEO-CHRISTIAN SCRIPTURE, the difference between "Faith" and "Superstition"?


Faith is the act by which we choose a trustworthy foundation upon which to build a meaningful existence in this world. Some choose Christianity, others hedonist atheism, others secularist agnosticism, others a political understanding of justice (which leads to social activism), others Buddhism, etc.

Superstition is the belief that, whatever the hidden source of good, truth, and beauty may be, we can grab it in our hands, possess it, make it ours, force it to work in our favor.

Hope this helps.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Aug, 2003 12:37 pm
maliagar wrote:
this would "prove" that there are no universal truths.
It does so to my satisfaction.
then maliagar wrote:
Faith is the act by which we choose a trustworthy foundation upon which to build a meaningful existence in this world. Some choose Christianity, others hedonist atheism, others secularist agnosticism, others a political understanding of justice (which leads to social activism), others Buddhism, etc.

Superstition is the belief that, whatever the hidden source of good, truth, and beauty may be, we can grab it in our hands, possess it, make it ours, force it to work in our favor.

I would submit that your brief discourse equates the terms as opposed to differentiates between them. Faith relies upon a "hidden source", by your own admission, just as you describe superstition. The two are not separate, or distinct, but the same, and cannot be proven otherwise.

I gotta say I admire your tenacity ... you are if nothing else indefatigable ... :wink:
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