3
   

Homosexuality v. Christianity -- A FEW QUESTIONS:

 
 
maliagar
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jul, 2003 08:18 pm
Speaking of evasions...

No problem, Frank, I won't overwhelm you with new material. Just deal with the core of what I said in my previous message (as I dealt with your objection about slavery).

And instruct me in the deep mysteries of "the religion of no-religion" (which is another convenient evasion) whenever the signs of the times are right. :wink:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Gosh, Maliagar, you sounded rather frazzled in that last post.
0 Replies
 
maliagar
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jul, 2003 08:21 pm
I wonder in whose idea of a civil discussion would this comment fit...

"Forgive them, for they know not what they say"... Rolling Eyes

cavfancier wrote:
If Jesus needed some serious anal, which apostle would get the dirty duty?
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jul, 2003 08:26 pm
I'm guessing...Simon Peter?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jul, 2003 08:28 pm
maliagar, the problem with religious doctrine is that it is entirely self-validated; it is the archtype of circular logic. "This is so because my religion says it is so beyond doubt or discussion". I take particular exception to your assertion
Quote:
theology is one of the most critical, rational and comprehensive disciplines in the history of Western culture
. I maintain it is none of those; it is uncritical of its basic premis, therefore proceding from an initial flaw; it is irrational in that it seeks to impose the metaphysical on the physical world, ttherefore falls to the realm of superstition, and it is incomprehensive in its very exclusionary nature in that it holds that all that falls outside of accepted doctrine is error. Indeed the function of chatechisms is to press the agenda of the ecclesiastical body responsible for the publication of the chatechism. The analogy of Christ as Shephard and The People as Sheep comes immediately to mind. How apt.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jul, 2003 08:31 pm
Sheep that have lost all sense of logic. c.i.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jul, 2003 08:37 pm
Here's the kind of logic religious people use to justify their faith - IMHO. You gotta admit, it makes sense. c.i.
******************************************



Why Men Lie

One day, while a woodcutter was cutting a branch of a tree above
a river, his axe fell into the river. When he cried out, the Lord
appeared and asked, "Why are you crying?"

The woodcutter replied that his axe has fallen into water, and he
needed the axe to make his living.

The Lord went down into the water and reappeared with a golden
axe. "Is this your axe?" the Lord asked.

The woodcutter replied, "No."

The Lord again went down and came up with a silver axe. "Is
this your axe?" the Lord asked.

Again, the woodcutter replied, "No."

The Lord went down again and came up with an iron axe.
"Is this your axe?" the Lord asked.

The woodcutter replied, "Yes."

The Lord was pleased with the man's honesty and gave him all
three axes to keep, and the woodcutter went home happy. Some
time later the woodcutter was walking with his wife along the
riverbank, and his wife fell into the river.

When he cried out, the Lord again appeared and asked him,
"Why are you crying?"

"Oh Lord, my wife has fallen into the water!"

The Lord went down into the water and came up with Jennifer
Lopez. "Is this your wife?" the Lord asked.

"Yes," cried the woodcutter.

The Lord was furious. "You lied! That is an untruth!"

The woodcutter replied, "Oh, forgive me, my Lord. It is a
misunderstanding. You see, if I had said 'no' to Jennifer Lopez,
You would have come up with Catherine Zeta-Jones. Then if I
also said 'no' to her, You would have come up with my wife.
Had I then said 'yes,' you would have given all three to me.
Lord, I am a poor man, and I am not able to take care of all three
wives, so THAT'S why I said yes to Jennifer Lopez."

The moral of this story is: whenever a man lies, it is for
a good and honorable reason, and for the benefit of others.
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jul, 2003 09:03 pm
The interesting thing about the mention of Jesus and the "serious anal" lies in how his followers like to see him. Look at the depictions in Western art (not to mention American kitsch) of Jesus, a glaringly effeminate, willowy, long-haired blonde; a bleary-eyed, rosy-lipped boy-man, like the hash-smokin' lost son of a Nordic tycoon, a drop-out turned turned shaman of lonely ladies in double-wides.

Don't tell me that's bullshit -- I didn't make it up! It's a favorite image of the faithful, particularly among his white ango-euro-american followers who have not depicted Jesus as he likely was: a tight-muscled, energetic, daring, small, dark Semite whose manner and abilities lay somewhere between great intelligence and edgy, self-important fanaticism. He could have been bi-sexual, hetrosexual, or homosexual for all we know. It must have been a matter of little importance, right?... or the Ken Starrs among the chroniclers of early A.D. would have made mention.

So much of what we "know" about Jesus and "god" and the rest of that cast of characters is based on a series of fantasies under the heavy control of contemporary mores during each age from early Dark Ages, through medieval times to the present day. Each created a Jesus best suited to their own beliefs and prejudices. And for most, that little darkish sectarian apparently wasn't the appropriate image.

Who's to say that latter-day squeamishness about homosexuality hasn't carefully erased -- Bowdlerized -- a roistering, happy bunch of desert guys known as the apostles who enjoyed each other's company in ways which would make the double-wide ladies faint and turn Maliagar's argument upside-down and inside-out?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jul, 2003 09:15 pm
That anybody would look at a painting of Jesus, and respond spiritually to it is not logical. As a matter of fact, it is claimed that the painting of Mary and the baby Jesus is a copy of Egyptian mythology. All the paintings that followed are similar as with the paintings of Jesus - no matter who the artist or when it was painted. c.i.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jul, 2003 09:21 pm
'Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit has NO FORGIVENESS FOREVER,
but is guilty of everlasting sin.' (Mark 3.29)

"The Christian resolve to find the world evil and ugly, has made the world evil and ugly.'
- Friedrich Nietzsche

- 2000 Years of Carnage & Barbarity in the name of Christ to be continued.
god is love? not bloodly likely......
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jul, 2003 09:35 pm
When you know a thing, to hold that you know it; and when you do not know a thing, to allow that you do not know it--this is knowledge.
Confucius

Beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow.
Aesop

What is now proved was once only imagined.
William Blake

What is rational is actual, and what is actual is rational.
Georg Hegel

Reason can never be popular. Passions and feelings may become popular, but reason will always remain the sole property of a few eminent individuals.
Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe

Reason can in general do more than blind force.
Gaius C. Gallus

Reason itself is fallible, and this fallibility must find a place in our logic.
Nicola Abbagnano

Imagination is a poor substitute for experience.
Havelock Ellis

The course of true anything does not run smooth.
Samuel Butler

He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder.
Tad Williams

In these matters the only certainty is that there is nothing certain.
Pliny The Elder

Nothing endures but change.
Heraclitus

The one unchangeable certainty is that nothing is unchangeable or certain.
John F. Kennedy

If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end in doubts, but if he will be content to begin with doubts, he shall end in certainties.
Francis Bacon

I can believe anything provided it is incredible.
Oscar Wilde

Faith embraces many truths which contradict each other.
Blaise Pascal

Half the work that is done in the world is to make things appear what they are not.
E.R. Beadle

It is wrong always, everywhere, and for everyone, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence.
William James

Everyone takes the limits of his own vision for the limits of the world.
Arthur Schopenhauer

You don't understand anything until you learn it more than one way.
Marvin Minsky

Faith, like a jackal, feeds among the tombs, and even from these dead doubts she gathers her most vital hope.
Herman Melville

What is faith but a kind of betting or speculation after all? It should be, "I bet that my Redeemer liveth."
Samuel Butler

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. [Hebrews 11:1]
Bible

I believe though I do not comprehend, and I hold by faith what I cannot grasp with the mind.
St. Bernard

Faith has to do with things that are not seen, and hope with things that are not in hand.
Saint Thomas Acquinas

In the field of observation, chance favors the prepared mind.
Louis Pasteur

The way to see by Faith is to shut the Eye of Reason.
Benjamin Franklin

Most of us, when all is said and done, like what we like and make up reasons for it afterwards.
Soren F. Petersen

The days that are still to come are the wisest witnesses.
Pindar

Nothing sways the stupid more than arguments they can't understand.
Cardinal de Retz

It is as absurd to argue men, as to torture them, into believing.
Cardinal J. Newman

There are no eternal facts, as there are no absolute truths.
Friederich Nietzsche

Intense feeling too often obscures the truth.
Harry Truman

Success is never final.
Winston Churchill
0 Replies
 
maliagar
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jul, 2003 09:47 pm
dyslexia wrote:
2000 Years of Carnage & Barbarity in the name of Christ to be continued. god is love? not bloodly likely......


It is funny to see how the atheists / secularists truly BELIEVE that the historical evidence is in their favor. And they dare to proclaim that the light of reason and knowledge is on their side!!! Ignorance and prejudice can be very daring... Not to forget the thousands of Catholics killed by the French, Mexican, and Spanish secularist revolutionaries during the 18 and 20 centuries... (I guess they don't count)

The worst wars in history have been the result of Modern political & "revolutionary" ideals: liberty, equality, the poor, the proletariat, democracy, "to protect our freedom", the Aryan race, opium, the nation, etc., etc. The worst wars in history were the result of post-Christian political systems and modern technology, and took place in the "all-so-enlightened" 18, 19, and 20th centuries. Neither Auschwitz nor Hiroshima and Nagasaki were Catholic problems--and you probably don't know that Hiroshima and Nagasaki just happened to be the cities with the largest numbers of Christians in all of Japan--until they evaporated them. You probably don't know either that the 20th century saw more Christian martyrs than all the other centuries combined. But hey, the killing of Christians is seldom news in the media.

Nevermind. By now I have an idea of the type of "evidence" you can provide.
0 Replies
 
maliagar
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jul, 2003 10:25 pm
Quote:
Quote:
[Said Maliagar]:
Don't forget that it was the Church who maintained universities, scientists, and the flame of classical philosophy during the Middle Ages. But hey, this can also be a lie.


[Said Frank:] What are you smoking? Christianity -- and the Church -- probably set science back in western civilization by 1000 years....


On the Middle Ages - This time, the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Encyclopedia Britannica on DVD :wink: : (excerpts):

"The term and its conventional meaning were introduced by Italian humanists with invidious intent; the humanists were engaged in a revival of classical learning and culture, and the notion of a thousand-year period of darkness and ignorance separating them from the ancient Greek and Roman world served to highlight the humanists' own work and ideals. In a sense, the humanists invented the Middle Ages in order to distinguish themselves from it. The Middle Ages nonetheless provided the foundation for the transformations of the humanists' own Renaissance. ...

The materials from which this civilization was molded were essentially threefold: the inheritance of classical antiquity, Christian tradition, and Germanic and Scandinavian social patterns. Classical antiquity, which set the standards of learning, culture, and government by which medieval no less than Renaissance scholars measured their own achievements, passed into Europe by several routes. …The Roman Catholic church was able to play an essential role in preserving literacy and even some classical learning in its liturgy and literature, in maintaining some of the forms of public administration in its diocesan government, in perpetuating the tradition of corporate responsibility for peace and the relief of want, and perhaps most of all in creating a new universal society to replace that once provided by the fallen empire. It was ultimately the Latin church rather than the Roman imperial tradition that determined the frontiers of modern Europe.

The only schools of Europe in the 8th century, except perhaps in parts of northern Italy, were those attached often to monasteries and more rarely to bishoprics. … The rise of the new skills in dialectic in the 11th and 12th centuries produced two phenomena: first, a confidence in rational thought as a means of solving problems, especially those raised by the conflict of authorities, and, second, a number of teachers whose exceptional talents attracted scholars from the farthest ends of Europe. The self-confidence and European reputation of Peter Abelard reveal this movement at its most distinctive. Around such teachers grew up either religious communities such as that of Saint-Victor of Paris or the earliest universities. In the 12th century, the lawyers of Bologna, the doctors of Salerno, and, above all, the theologians of Paris were becoming organized bodies governed by a chancellor; by the 13th century, the universities possessed their own statutes regulating the arduous courses of study toward recognized degrees. The crown of studies was the pursuit of the highest knowledge, theology. The forms of 13th-century university study gave rise to the characteristic theological achievements of the period, the summae of the Dominican St. Thomas Aquinas and the Franciscan St. Bonaventure. The founding of universities received a new impetus at the end of the 14th and 15th centuries, when they spread into Scandinavia, Scotland, and eastern Europe. "
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jul, 2003 11:50 pm
Being a Catholic myself, I've always thought, our church in Germany (and especially my doicese here) is (rather) conservative related to other Catholics worldwide.


If they really preached here, what maliagar says, well, it would minimise to the seize of a sect.
0 Replies
 
maliagar
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jul, 2003 12:02 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Being a Catholic myself, I've always thought, our church in Germany (and especially my doicese here) is (rather) conservative related to other Catholics worldwide.


And that's good or bad?

Quote:
If they really preached here, what maliagar says, well, it would minimise to the seize of a sect.


Many people believe that Christians in Europe are already in the process of becoming a new minority (cf. Card. Ratzinger). The future of Christianity is in America (Latin and Anglo, south and north), Africa and Asia. Of course, the truth of Christianity is not judged by how popular it is in this modern world.

Take care.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jul, 2003 03:21 am
(Aside - my goddess! I haven't been near this question for ages, because I figured it would just be treading the same weary rut - but the arguments are interesting! Not tempting me to join the other side, but interesting! Gotta go read - wow...)
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jul, 2003 09:23 am
maliagar wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Don't forget that it was the Church who maintained universities, scientists, and the flame of classical philosophy during the Middle Ages. But hey, this can also be a lie.


What are you smoking?

Christianity -- and the Church -- probably set science back in western civilization by 1000 years....


Yes, yes. The "Dark Ages"... Did you ever hear about the 12th century rennaisance? Have you ever read a history of medieval science? It doesn't look like. But you really think you have it nailed down.
..
[/quote]

Since you are so insistent upon discussing the "religion of non-religion" I have decided to discuss that issue with you -- and leave aside for the moment the fact that the very first "teaching" of the church that we looked at -- the section on slavery in the Catholic catechism -- is so faulty and lacking in information as to be worse than worthless. It actually distorts the truth.

But like I said, we'll leave that aside and come back to it after I discuss this "religion of non-religion" nonsense with you for a bit.

BUT FIRST -- I've got to at least comment on this latest fantasy of yours.

Maliagar, Christianity in general, and the Catholic Church in particular, have been the bane of science from the very beginning -- and continuing on to today.

These universities -- and the study of science -- to which you refer are an insult to true science. And woe to any professor or student who came up with a notion to be tested that could possibly put the slightest dent in the Christian mythology that prevailed at the time.

For you to suggest that the Church worked in furtherance of science -- rather than as a stonewall against which science had no chance of prevailing -- is so laughable, I cannot understand how even someone as much in denial as you can peddle it.

But...a good laugh is not always easy to come by, so I guess we have to take 'em where we can get 'em!

I'll be back in a few minutes with a link to a new thread where we will all have a chance to discuss THE RELIGION OF NON-RELIGION!
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jul, 2003 10:01 am
Here's the new thread devoted to discussing "the religion of non-religion."


http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=298655
0 Replies
 
cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jul, 2003 10:31 am
Frankly, I am still going with the Church of Apisa. Yet to be convinced by maliagar.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jul, 2003 11:13 am
maliagar,

In my every post that I addressed to you I asked two simple questions that have not yet been answered.

Since I'm not ask stupid as I look I have not comtinued discussion with you on this and am still waiting on those answers.

Again:

Pick one of the following:

A) "I believe homosexuality is wrong"
B) "Homosexuality is wrong"

If A: "I agree, you do indeed believe homosexuality is wrong"
Else: "Please substantiate your earlier arguments that homosexuality is unatural"

If attempt made to substantiate is made: "let's bat this around"
Else: "I am waiting"

If bat this around: we eventually move to the establishment of a connection between unatural and wrong
Else: we give up

If connection between "unatural" and "wrong" is established: Your declaration will have validity
Else: it won't
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jul, 2003 11:18 am
craven, for the sake of discussion, is it possible for anything to be "unnatural" assuming that "natural" means what exists i am guessing that "unnatural" by definition would mean something that does not exist. just a thought.
0 Replies
 
 

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