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Wed 14 Mar, 2007 02:11 pm
The longer I have been teaching at this high school, the more it is clear to me that I have no problem teaching English - the TEFL course plus my 20 years of teaching experience has helped a lot. BUt also, the longer I have been teaching there, the more I realize that there is a flip side - bringing up the teenagers which is an area where I get lost over and over again.
Our headmaster often encourages or basically wants us to keep bringing the kids up - he says, check how clean their classrooms are, check their behavior, etc. When I started teaching at this school, I thought I would just and only teach English. I wasn't going to bring up anybody. I didn't think it was necessary. But later I saw - no matter if you call it bringing up or not - the kids made me discipline them. I hate to punish my students, but I have to . I sometimes have to take a measure and report to the main teacher, and similar things. And the kids react to it - as soon as I punish, they obey. When I wave something, they misbehave.
I don't know though, and this is the main point of this post, if it is really possible to bring up - or how you say it in English - a teenage student.
Example, I can keep saying how necessary it is to have the classroom clean, they will only clean it when they are forced to. THey are only disciplined and respectful when they are forced to or afraid of punishment.
I see it all the time. And the same thing when I was a teenage student, I don't remember being brought up by any teachers, only disciplined, all the time disciplined, almost never effected out of respect. I don't know if I am making sense here. for example I know a great philosophy university teacher from New York City who absolutely doesn't care how messed up his room is. Then how come this adult, sucessful representative of American intellectual elite wasn't brought up to clean his place? Because I don't think teachers at high school can change much about the values of their students.
Let's say students don't like a teacher. But they obey the rules the teachers sets. They clean the classroom, don't fight, don't talk back, don't come late. The situation seems like the teacher has all the respect. But in fact they don't care about him or her. When they go home, they think he or she is an idiot. They are only afraid of them so they are obedient. I hated my main teacher at high school but I was so afraid of her that I never dared to even whisper in her lessons. She scared me to death. WHen she looked at me critically after I made a mistake or something, I felt like an insect. DId I respect her? I don't think so.
On the other hand, I hear my students love me. THere are groups of periods during the term when I really feel a lot of respect and friendliness from them in the class. But I don't think I can change their attitude to anything except very tiny bits of something. I could make them at least think about the meaning of respect or politeness, but that is about it.
I think when the students respect me generally as a person and don't think I am an idiot, it is easier to discipline them without punishing or threats. I can tell them Guys, please, be quiet now, you know it is necessary. ANd they just nodd and are quiet for a while without being afraid of me. But I still have to punish at times, and when it is the group that likes me and I like them, then it is really hard for me to do it. I always tell myself, man, don't you have a BETTER idea? Do you have to belittle them?
But I don't know. So I think this post contains two question. How can you bring up teenagers who don't like you, even if they obey you and how can you bring up teenagers who like you even if they don't obey you? And there is a lot of space between these two opposites.
You're probably spending too much time on polishing your image. Students need to learn from you, respect your wishes, and obey. If they like you or not is not the key issue, really.
10 years from now they might remember you as one of their favorite
teachers who has taught them everything they needed to know about
the English language - today they might think more indifferent about you.
Regardless, you'll earn their respect if you act appropriately, but that
still doesn't mean they like you. You're never liked by all student anyway,
so you have to make up your mind what kind of teacher you want to be
and what's more important to you.
Frankly, I think your ego is doing a lot of talking here
maybe it is my ego, but i just don't feel i was born to discipline and punish people, it is a very, very strange position for me
i taught adults for years and never had to do that so now it is really difficult for me and don't understand what is going on
basically the whole suger and whip stuff is something i hate to do , okay, maybe the sugar part is okay with me
the previous post is not so adequate,
i think what is important is that whether students like us or don't like us teachers is an indicator how good we are professionally
againk this is based on my own experience when i was a student - i don't remember any bad teachers that i would like and don't remember any good teachers i wouldn't like
i think this is some feedback we get as teachers - when we feel the students are positive towards us, they are probably happy with the way we teach and treat them, when they are negative, it is probably showing some problems or mistakes we make as teachers
so of course, there are individual students and they are never same, but in general a group of students generalize positive or neutral or negative emotions toward a teacher - while i would asssume that neutral is fine in scientific subjects like Math or Biology, we English teachers need more positive atmosphere in class - so when i get some news that students like me it is for me information that the atmosphere we generate in class is positive and optimal for learning and communication
I find some of your statements mystifying. I don't understand why you're so concerned about being liked. I don't understand why you equate being liked with being a good teacher. I don't understand why you are surprised that teenagers require more discipline than adult students.
And there's a language problem. I don't understand what you mean by bringing up students.
I do understand why you might feel uncomfortable about having to discipline students if you've never had to do it before. However, disciplining students is part of the job.
By the way, I do not agree that students liking you is an indicator of how good a teacher you are.
Ok, I translated the term "vychovat" into English, it could be "raise".
I am asking if it is possible to raise or bring up children at school. In our country, it is considered something as part of a primary and secondary school teacher's job to "raise" children. I guess in the US or Western Europe, parents feel responsible for raising their children, developing them into socially intelligent, mature people with adequate behavior. I don't know if Western schools feel the same responsibility, but our schools definitely do. So when I took this job, I didn't want to deal with that. I thought the kids have all kinds of values and problems and parents or not enough parents etc and I have basically no chance to imprint some behavior patterns or values into them. This is what I am asking about.
As for being concerned about being liked or not, whenever I gor first signal that I am liked by students some 15 years ago, I felt delighted, to me it was signal I did my job well. This is really only based on my understanding the relationship of a student and a teacher. As I said, I can't imagine a good teacher who is not liked by the students. I just can't. If my students don't like me in on the whole, for me it means I can't teach and handle them. We could use more sophisticated lexis here, so we could talk about positive attitude toward the teacher from the students. I just cant' imagine how you could teach a language, which involves a lot of emotions without being positively accepted. It is quite common to teach adults who more or less dont' care about you and take you as a robot or a slot machine, but this just doesn't occur with teenagers, they always develop some kind of emotional attitude toward me, be it negative or positive. And the emotional atmosphere makes my work easier or tougher, complicated or simple, etc. When I enter a classroom, I immediately feel the atmosphere and how difficult the lesson will be for me emotionally.
As I said, I remember I liked all teachers I considered good teachers and didn't like or hated the teachers I considered bad. I remember we really
discussed the quality of teachers as teenagers and developed our attitude toward them. I suppose my students act the same.
Different cultures and expectations. Teachers in the United States are not expected to raise children.
I remember a number of teachers I learned from and respected who were not especially likable. I simply don't equate being liked with being a good teacher.
My third grade teacher was cold, tough, and demanding. I didn't like her. Most of the students didn't like her. Looking back, I see that she taught me a great deal. She got the job done.
When I was older, in high school, there were warm and caring people who didn't teach well and there were mean crusty types who knew what they were doing. I respected the latter; liked but didn't have much respect for the former.
I simply don't see the necessary connection between being a good teacher and being liked. The two are not mutually exclusive, but they can be.
I agree with Calamity Jane. I think it would help you to stop worrying about being liked. You're dealing with adolescents who need a good teacher--and discipline.
actually i remember one physics teacher at high school who
was not especially likeable, but was a good teacher
what you are saying about being liked or not liked really doesn't apply to teaching foreign languages in the modern way - if students don't like you they won't tell you anything spontaneously because they won't feel comfortable telling you
Worrying about being liked or not liked might be transformed into How much punishment is too much, okay?
Also, American teachers are not supposed to raise children? BUt they do make them do things in a certain way and teach them how to behave in a society. You teach them not to be racist, I guess, so that is what I thought by raising them. You teach them to be polite, to not cheat, not lie, not steal, not attack others physically, aren't American teachers supposed to raise children like this?
What you're talking about is teaching, not raising.
I doubt that we will ever come to agreement.
I wish you well with what you're doing. I hope you become more comfortable with what is being asked of you.
stach, I've gone to school in Europe and the United States, and to tell
you the truth, teachers aren't that much different here or there.
My English teachers in Europe weren't exactly on our popular list, but primarily for a dull concept in teaching English - too much grammar,
not enough free conversation.
If you really want to make a difference with your students, then teach
them English well and make your curriculum interesting to them.
Ideally, you want to go down in history as a teacher who has taught
them well, as Roberta stated, not as a teacher that is well liked. Your
priorities are not where they should be, and your emphasis on your own
persona is actually quite disturbing to me.
CalamityJane wrote: your emphasis on your own
persona is actually quite disturbing to me.
Yep.
Be fair.
Be consistent.
Be informative.
Then let the chips fall where they may.
Roberta wrote:What you're talking about is teaching, not raising.
I doubt that we will ever come to agreement.
then it is a language problem, not an education problem - so our word doesn't translate into English, so what
so I meant teaching them - but there is a difference between teaching a language and teaching behaviour and developing a child's character
so I was asking how can a teacher who is not liked by the students develop a child's character - the teachers i didn't trust when i was a kid never had any effect on my personality other than developing some kind of temporary inferior complex, while the teachers i trusted inspired my actions in my life further on
example - students don't like me. students are all racist. i tell them that racism is no good. they don't care what i say and are still racist
example 2
students like me. students are all racist. i tell them racism is no good. they are willing to discuss this and maybe they change their attitude
so if the emotional atmosphere in class is not positive i don't think you can teach children any values, but of course, you can force them to do things that are required
i am not trying to win the debate here, i am just asking about possibility to develop a studen't character in an environment of high school - and it seems to me that first students have to trust the teachers, which is not different from having a positive attitude towared the teachers
What was your educational training, stach? There are some rather startling gaps that don't seem to be explained just by cultural differences.
Roberta was saying that teachers should teach the subject, not raise OR bring up children. There was a language issue with "bring up" vs. "raise," not with "teach".
As a simple response to your posts on this subject, I'd say stay entirely away from attempting to develop a child's character. You seem way too confused on the subject, and there are many other people in your students' lives who can take care of that aspect. You would be well-served to not think of that at all, and merely teach the subject -- English -- as well as you can.
CalamityJane wrote:Your
priorities are not where they should be, and your emphasis on your own
persona is actually quite disturbing to me.
i don't put emphasis on my persona, i put emphasis on a positive relationship between me and the students, so there are two sides involved, not just me
you can't cut me off this relationship
maybe i am a weird kind of teacher, but i really care about my students as people, not just some objects of education, and i expect some human relationship between me and them, involving emotions - so for example after a lesson that was full of positive energy, i feel great and sometimes i am really touched, i love my job and my students
this morning i talked to my students about these issues and it was great to get their feedback and hear them talk about their experience with punishment, praise, teaching values etc. - what they tell you is not what you get at university, but what they tell you is something very valuable for academic research and for me as a teacher and - last but not the least, as a person
sozobe wrote:What was your educational training, stach? There are some rather startling gaps that don't seem to be explained just by cultural differences.
Roberta was saying that teachers should teach the subject, not raise OR bring up children. There was a language issue with "bring up" vs. "raise," not with "teach".
As a simple response to your posts on this subject, I'd say stay entirely away from attempting to develop a child's character. You seem way too confused on the subject, and there are many other people in your students' lives who can take care of that aspect. You would be well-served to not think of that at all, and merely teach the subject -- English -- as well as you can.
well, then it is the opposite of the philosophy of our school. and all schools in our country are trying to do their best to develop the children's character
I don't know why there should be such a huge cultural difference between
two democratic countries both roughly based on Christian values.
I really had that attitude when I started to teach - like Idon't care about their character. BUt then soon I heard to discuss that at meetings and our teachers are strongly adviced to do their best and develop the student's character positively.
It is taught at our universities, and encouraged at all kinds of schools.
WHere did this gap appeared in our cultures? Maybe the difference between Catholic roots and protestand roots, I guess.
Also, personally, It makes sense to me that I should make good use of opportunities to develop their characters. I noticed some students kept whining about some things. They kept whining for about 3 months. I told them that whining will never get them anywhere in the real life. Then their mothers came to parents teachers meeting. The mother kind of started to whine. I told them to encourage her daughter to be really positive when learning a language and she will learn much more and benefit from that positive attitude. The mother probably got the picture, she didn't argue with me and never ever did her daughter whine again in class. A short time ago I praised this girl in front of the class. This is an example of developing or shaping a student's character.
I had a paragraph that I deleted because I thought it detracted from the message that schools can and do develop character, I just think that YOU -- stach -- are too confused about how to best do so. This is based on the sum of what you've posted here, not just this thread.
Since there are plenty of other people in their lives to fill the character-building breach, I suggested that the simple answer to some of the issues you face is for YOU -- stach -- to ignore the character-building aspect and just plain focus on teaching English as well as you can.
The alternative is to learn how to appropriately address character issues and that's where the startling gaps come in.
Just for example, there's something cultish about the idea of having students accept that racism is bad simply because their beloved teacher says so. Students (especially high school students) should be presented with reasons that racism is bad and come to their own conclusions. That should happen whether they think the teacher hangs the moon or whether they think he's kind of a doofus but a perfectly decent teacher.
Again, the knowledge they emerge with at the end of the class should be more important to you than how much they like you.
let's check the dictionary Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English
bring up- to educate and care for a child until it is grown up
my comment> well, this is what schools in our country try to do and until now i thought it is a job of all schools for children
raise - to look after your children and help them grow
my comment > this is not what I am talking about, of course
teach - to give lessons in school
- to show sb how to do something
- to change sb.s ideas , to tell sb how they should behave or what they should think
my comment, the first meaning is not relevant
the second meaning is not relevant
the third meaning is relevant
sozobe wrote:I had a paragraph that I deleted because I thought it detracted from the message that schools can and do develop character, I just think that YOU -- stach -- are too confused about how to best do so. This is based on the sum of what you've posted here, not just this thread.
Since there are plenty of other people in their lives to fill the character-building breach, I suggested that the simple answer to some of the issues you face is for YOU -- stach -- to ignore the character-building aspect and just plain focus on teaching English as well as you can.
The alternative is to learn how to appropriately address character issues and that's where the startling gaps come in.
Just for example, there's something cultish about the idea of having students accept that racism is bad simply because their beloved teacher says so. Students (especially high school students) should be presented with reasons that racism is bad and come to their own conclusions. That should happen whether they think the teacher hangs the moon or whether they think he's kind of a doofus but a perfectly decent teacher.
Again, the knowledge they emerge with at the end of the class should be more important to you than how much they like you.
But these are just your opinions, right?
Sure, as much as anything is.
They are opinions that I emerged with after getting a master's degree in education at a pretty good university, plus after running an educational program for young adults and teaching in it for three years.
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