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Would the world be better off without religion?

 
 
Greyfan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Mar, 2007 05:11 pm
I would have to guess the world would be about the same. Raphael, Leonardo, and Michaelangelo would have been inspired by whoever provided their patronage.

We would be short a few cathedral ceilings, I suppose. But then again, maybe not. Who knows what heights of self worship humanity would be capable of, if we weren't projecting our self-love onto the gods.
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Mar, 2007 05:44 pm
spendius wrote:
The atheist cannot answer the question George. Just as he recognises no religious authority he also recognises no social authority. He is a law unto himself as de Sade explained at such interminable length.

Law abiding is a section of fearing sanctions along with good manners. What else could they be. Strategies. The fear being the limiting factor and variable.
Let's put it this way, I'm very unlikely to recognize your authority based on the substance of this post, but then that's the fun of it for you. However I was inclined to correct your unauthortive spelling errors as per "recognises" (sic) but in the interests of balance, I didn't.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Mar, 2007 06:28 pm
Greyfan wrote-

Quote:
I would have to guess the world would be about the same. Raphael, Leonardo, and Michaelangelo would have been inspired by whoever provided their patronage.


And when "fashion" was the patron you got the Campbell's soup tins, the unmade bed (minus an obvious feature) and the sawn in half cow pickled in formaldehyde.

Lucky old you!
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Mar, 2007 07:19 pm
As I recall from distant readings, many social theorists of the past have argued that religion--and most major institutions, like marriage, and other forms of social organization and social control--exist because of the benefits they afford social systems and individuals. These "functionalists" or "order theorists" favor the anaysis of how societies persist in long-term states of relative stability and equilibrium. This orientation has been challenged by the so-called "conflict theorists" (which would include Marx) who argue that just because societies function/persist longer with such institutions one cannot "explain" their existence with respect to their "effects" (the social and personal functions they serve for social systems and individuals)--unless one can demonstrate that there were social engineers who, as effective "causes", designed societies with this in mind: unlikely.
Conflict theorists argue that institutions often come into being as the result of conflict between competing individuals or interest groups. I don't see how this applies to some institutions but regarding religion it is sometimes very apparent (e.g. Henry VIII and St. Paul) and the formation of kingdoms/states out of expansionist chiefdoms.
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Mar, 2007 12:10 am
Fab post JLN!
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Mar, 2007 12:21 am
Setanta wrote:

I am unwilling to call anything "evil"--it is a term which derives from a subjective judgment, and does nothing to describe reality.


Hi Setanta,

I hope you don't mind if I ask you about a few specifics.

Cannibalism?

Mass murder?

Rape?

Torture?

Pedophilia?

Terrorism?

None of these are inherently evil?

Are they simply expressions of a 'different opinion'?
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Mar, 2007 04:40 am
JLN wrote-

Quote:
unless one can demonstrate that there were social engineers who, as effective "causes", designed societies with this in mind: unlikely.


There are. Theologians.

rl wrote-

Quote:
None of these are inherently evil?

Are they simply expressions of a 'different opinion'?


De Sade would have answered "Yes".

One might say they are "wicked" which is a subjective judgement and does nothing to describe reality.

Social systems exist and have previously existed where all those categories of behaviour have been acceptable and even approved.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Mar, 2007 10:30 am
Rl has asked Setanta:

"I hope you don't mind if I ask you about a few specifics.

Cannibalism?

Mass murder?

Rape?

Torture?

Pedophilia?

Terrorism?

None of these are inherently evil?

Are they simply expressions of a 'different opinion?"

This is a classic example of the red herring tactic. RL has listed some of the more reviled acts from the perspective of our society's moral code, a line-up of acts that he knows Setanta and all A2Kers revile (and if there is any A2Ker who does not revile them he would never admit it--well, with the exception, perhaps, of Dyslexia). But that bypasses the philosophical question of whether the listed acts are objective/inherently/absolutely EVIL or whether they are culturally-defined/subjective/intersubjective evils.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Mar, 2007 10:34 am
Spendius, theologians are not designers/founders of moral codes and mythologies (what I referred to as social engineers). They are apologists for them. Theologicans start out with a presumption of the truth value of such codes and mythlogies and then proceed to show us why they are true. Philosophers try to begin without such presumptions (except for those upon which any investigation rests, like "truth" itself).
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Mar, 2007 12:59 pm
JLN-

That's a fierce position to take and having taken it you are well advised to stick to it.

Henry Fielding wrote this in Tom Jones-

Quote:
True it is, that philosophy makes us wiser, but Christianity makes us better men. Philosophy elevates and steels the mind, Christianity softens and sweetens it. The former makes the objects of human admiration, the latter of Divine love. That ensures us a temporal, but this an eternal happiness.


And even Veblen, arch materialist and anti-religionist as he was, felt it his duty to say in speaking of devout observances-

Quote:
It is, of course, equally legitimate to consider these phenomena from a different point of view. They may be appreciated for a different purpose, and the characterization here offered may be turned about. In speaking from the point of view of the devotional interest, or the interest of devout taste, it may, with equal cogency, be said that the spiritual attitude bred in men by the modern industrial life is unfavorable to the free development of the life of faith. It might fairly be objected to the later development of the industrial process that its discipline tends to "materialism," to the elimination of filial piety. From the aesthetic point of view, again, something to a similar purport might be said. But, however legitimate and valuable these and the like reflections may be for their purpose, they would not be in place in the present enquiry, which is exclusively concerned with the valuation of these phenomena from the economic point of view.


Even then I'm afraid you have seriously underestimated the role of theologians to such an extent that it is quite plain that the essential aspects of their activities have so far escaped your understanding.

This is entirely to be expected of course in a materialist who confines his attention to economic matters alone.

But, as everybody knows- Man does not live by bread alone.

BTW- If ever you take trouble over your appearence for some event or other, above that you normally do, you are thereby recognising the concept of "ceremonial uncleanliness" in certain circumstances and that lends to those circumstances a spiritual dimension.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Mar, 2007 01:45 pm
Spendius, I agree that the teachings of Jesus would soften and sweeten our minds IF we focused on his actual ethical teachings rather than the myths about his supernatural status. Jesus pointed to the Truth and we only sucked his finger for comfort.
Churchianity, on the other, the product of questionable characters like Paul, Luther, and Henry VIII, only hardens us. The Church(in its many denominations) has inspired us to burn freethinkers, murder pagans by the sword (Crusades) and drown and burn "witches" whom we know now never existed as such.
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real life
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Mar, 2007 02:32 pm
JLNobody wrote:
Rl has asked Setanta:

"I hope you don't mind if I ask you about a few specifics.

Cannibalism?

Mass murder?

Rape?

Torture?

Pedophilia?

Terrorism?

None of these are inherently evil?

Are they simply expressions of a 'different opinion?"

This is a classic example of the red herring tactic. RL has listed some of the more reviled acts from the perspective of our society's moral code, a line-up of acts that he knows Setanta and all A2Kers revile (and if there is any A2Ker who does not revile them he would never admit it--well, with the exception, perhaps, of Dyslexia). But that bypasses the philosophical question of whether the listed acts are objective/inherently/absolutely EVIL or whether they are culturally-defined/subjective/intersubjective evils.


How have I 'bypassed' the question?

That is exactly the question I asked:

'Are these things inherently evil? Or is it just somebody's opinion?'

That is what I asked.

If we as a society decided to wink at these, would they no longer be evil?

So, what do you think, JLN?

Are any/all of these inherently evil?

It should be obvious that if these or any other behavior(s) are inherently evil, then the whole argument for moral subjectivism falls like a house of cards.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Mar, 2007 03:30 pm
JLN wrote-

Quote:
Spendius, I agree that the teachings of Jesus would soften and sweeten our minds IF we focused on his actual ethical teachings rather than the myths about his supernatural status. Jesus pointed to the Truth and we only sucked his finger for comfort.


That is an extremely complex question. It is in thinking it simple that most of the difficulties arise. Theologians live in those complexities which are difficult enough without rapid change comlicating matters further. They deliberate as best they can, hopefully putting their own interests aside, and their conclusions needs must be simple for the simple folks to follow. I think the American has a tendency to abhor being thought to be one of the "simple folks" and mistakes the complexity for one he can understand which is self-evidently of a lower degree of difficulty. Often by a very wide margin.

A "witch" for example might well have existed except that she was given characteristics which she obviously couldn't have had to hide the characteristics she did have which it wasn't useful to explain to the "simple folks". That you seem to believe there were no witches is based on your appraisal of those characteristics she was asserted to have.

See what I mean?
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Mar, 2007 03:39 pm
I sense disengenuity here. You are not asking if any and all--even the most horrendous--defined evils are absolute and objective or relative and inter-subjective (cultural). You have asked us relativists to deny that pedophilia, mass murder and rape (etc.) are only matters of opinion--leaving the possibility that they might be morally acceptable actions.
I believe that all my values are subjective and cultural (intersubjective). And I would (or believe I should) go to war against other socities with contrasting culturally-defined value systems to put an end to certain behaviors--e.g., clitorectomy, infanticide, human sacrifice, etc.--even knowing that the values I an killing, and perhaps dying, for are relative. I do not need the illusion of absolutism to stand absolutely for my values.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Mar, 2007 03:58 pm
You believe in the existence of witches, and the liklihood that some women deserved to be burned? Shocked

See how it feels?
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Mar, 2007 04:00 pm
Yes. You "believe" they are right enough to risk your life for.

And just how did you come by these beliefs?
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Mar, 2007 04:06 pm
At least two general sources. Some have been the result of cultural conditioning, others my own constructions. Both are very complex realms of experience.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Mar, 2007 04:11 pm
JLN wrote-

Quote:
You believe in the existence of witches, and the liklihood that some women deserved to be burned?


I believe in the existence of witches in the full sense of the official definition provided by the authorities. Others may have used aspects of the matter for other reasons. Perhaps many.

And tales can be exaggerated to have greater effect. The more so in societies lacking good communications.

Of course I don't think they deserved to be burned. Nor any tank crew in Iraq. I'm surprised you would imply such a thing. There are horror shows everywhere you look in history. Even now.

That was a different world. And only artists and relics can describe it. Not historians. And inadequately too.
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Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Mar, 2007 05:52 pm
spendius wrote:


But it is interesting that A2K does seem to attract non-believers disproportionately and by doing so gives non-believers a false sense of the attraction of their position. The last poll I saw gave 90% of US citizens as "believers". So while non-believers pat each other on the back and reassure each other it seems they are a small minority electorally.
.


Maybe it's worth contemplating what the "www" stands for just after the http://

The USA is a rare case in the civilised world. Extremely religious comparatively speaking.
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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Mar, 2007 06:02 pm
Yes Eorl-- Americans do seem to take it more seriously than the rest of the Christian world.

I think it has something to do with money.

Dover taxpayers were fleeced whilst they slept innocently in their beds. A little from a lot can often be more than a lot from a few. And much easier to expidite.
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