Is there proof God exists?

Real Life wrote:

It may not have always been precisely 24 hours. But it doesn't refer to long ages.

If not 24 hours then what? 36 hours? 48 hours? Just how old do you think this earth is?

Real Life wrote:

Who said it was mysterious?

Then enlighten us. Where did the light come from?

Real Life wrote:

Not before the universe. Before the sun, moon and stars.

If the universe is not all the stars than what is the universe? An empty void consisting of nothing more than the earth and this mysterious light?

Please provide the science that supports your belief that the earth and plants were created before the sun, moon and stars.

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xingu wrote:

If the universe is not all the stars than what is the universe?

The stars reside within the universe, but are not synonomous with the universe.

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real life wrote:

xingu wrote:
If the universe is not all the stars than what is the universe?

The stars reside within the universe, but are not synonomous with the universe.

So your saying the earth and its plants were created before the sun, moon and stars.

Show us the science that supports this.

What is your mysterious light?

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xingu wrote:

So your saying the earth and its plants were created before the sun, moon and stars.

Show us the science that supports this.

Do you understand why historical events typically cannot be 'scientifically proven'?

You, for instance, could not 'scientifically prove' what you ate for lunch yesterday.

You might even have witnesses who say they saw what you ate, but that would not be 'scientific proof'.

Do you understand the limits of what science can and cannot adequately address?

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xingu wrote:

What I would like to know is what his fellow engineers would say to the statement that the sun, moon and stars were created after the earth, plants and trees (Genesis 1:1-19)?

What would his engineer friends say if you told them the sun stood still in the sky for 24 hours? (Joshua 10:13)

It would be unfair for me to speak for my friends on these passages because to the best of my knowledge, we have not spoken of them.

However, given the Christian engineers that I know - I imagine they would go directly to faith.

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baddog1 wrote:

xingu wrote:
What I would like to know is what his fellow engineers would say to the statement that the sun, moon and stars were created after the earth, plants and trees (Genesis 1:1-19)?

What would his engineer friends say if you told them the sun stood still in the sky for 24 hours? (Joshua 10:13)

It would be unfair for me to speak for my friends on these passages because to the best of my knowledge, we have not spoken of them.

However, given the Christian engineers that I know - I imagine they would go directly to faith.

Faith over reason?

Is that the way to design a bridge?

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Ashers,
That is actually one of the things I appreciate most about Buddhism and Hinduism. The philosophies are very accepting, tolerant, and inclusive at least as far as what I have seen. To me, that gives them great strength. It shows well thought out approach to reality in my opinion.
They have the ability to adapt to life and new ideas which is supported by spiritual guidance rather than being hindered by it. I see the core of ideas able to meld easily with real life situations where at least with Christianity you are almost constantly at odds with yourself trying to make life fit into the box defined by the faith. Well, maybe I should say that was my experience with it.

There are definitely similarities between meditation and certain ways of exploring music.

As you said:

Quote:

I'm not a musician myself but I can imagine from a spiritual perspective there are moments of unity, barriers between me and the instrument dissolving.

That is my goal or approach essentially with the guitar. I try to develop my muscle memory effectively enough that I do not have to put any thought into how to play the notes and only focus on what to play. This opens the possibility of improvisation or free style. I can focus and try to control it, or sit back and almost let my mind take me where it wants. I've found some of my best stuff has come from the latter - when I do not try to control it and allow ideas to make their way to the surface on their own.

Then as you said:

Quote:

Even if you tend to personify God in personal ways, that simple mindedness and good natured way of dealing with things, the pure heart, brings about a unification. I think that unification can be seen in all walks of life and in all manner of situations, music does seem very powerful, intense moments of listening proved an eye opener for me personally. Brings an interesting angle to questions of "does God exist?" too!

This is why I consider myself agnostic. While I have yet to really identify with any religion, I feel there is a possibility that there is something greater than us. I just don't think my life would change much even if there was proof of it.

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xingu wrote:

baddog1 wrote:
xingu wrote:
What I would like to know is what his fellow engineers would say to the statement that the sun, moon and stars were created after the earth, plants and trees (Genesis 1:1-19)?

What would his engineer friends say if you told them the sun stood still in the sky for 24 hours? (Joshua 10:13)

It would be unfair for me to speak for my friends on these passages because to the best of my knowledge, we have not spoken of them.

However, given the Christian engineers that I know - I imagine they would go directly to faith.

Faith over reason?

Is that the way to design a bridge?

Strawman.

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Love the way Christians hide behind "strawman" when they can't answer questions. Neo does that a lot.

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xingu wrote:

baddog1 wrote:
xingu wrote:
What I would like to know is what his fellow engineers would say to the statement that the sun, moon and stars were created after the earth, plants and trees (Genesis 1:1-19)?

What would his engineer friends say if you told them the sun stood still in the sky for 24 hours? (Joshua 10:13)

It would be unfair for me to speak for my friends on these passages because to the best of my knowledge, we have not spoken of them.

However, given the Christian engineers that I know - I imagine they would go directly to faith.

Faith over reason?

Is that the way to design a bridge?

I don't think baddog said they were designing a bridge.

You asked about his view of a historical event in the past.

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there is not the slightest evidence that god exists, let alone proof of her existence.

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Steve 41oo wrote:

there is not the slightest evidence that god exists

What type of evidence are you referring to, Steve?

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The point is if your an engineer and your going to design something your going to use logic, reason that is backed up by math and past structural designs that work.

Why would you not use the same for religion? Why believe in something that is so totally false that no amount of reasoning, logic or science can support it?

That's not a strawman but a simple question?

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xingu wrote:

The point is if your an engineer and your going to design something your going to use logic, reason that is backed up by math and past structural designs that work.

Why would you not use the same for religion? Why believe in something that is so totally false that no amount of reasoning, logic or science can support it?

That's not a strawman but a simple question?

It's a phony question.

Do you apply science when deciding who you will marry?

Do you use math when considering what to watch on TV?

Can science prove where you scratched yesterday morning?

You want to appeal to science for everything, without understanding the limits that science has.

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Baddog1
I am sooooo glad to know your background. No we can have reference to journal articles instead of www.jesusToldMe.org web sites to defend what you say. No more semantics -- now science. Because I and everyone else here with a science or technical background has a reeeeel good idea of what you were taught. That you know what framework science works within.
So you KNOW standard science. So now when you do the semantic two-step with things like this "conclusion" crap and "science and God are the same" we will all know that that is either your own personal science, Baddog1 science, small "s", not Science capital "S", (because we were all 'taught wrong' and that it is Baddog1 and not the experts that knows best) Or you are, as spendi likes to put it "taking the piss". And that you are fully aware of this.

Talk about digging yourself into a hole. I have it easy, I've not been espousing ANY personal beliefs or pet theories, I have been stating basic scientific principles that anyone can easily check in any good textbook or Peer-Reviewed journal.

So now the shoe is on the other foot. We get to ask the questions and YOU get to jump through the hoops. Unfortunately I have work to do today. But this is so juicy I will take my personal time this weekend to come up with some questions for you to enlighten us on. Since I, and I'm assuming everyone one else, was 'taught wrong'. I think I'm going to have to stop a Lowes on the way home tonight and stock up on hoops cause I don't think I've got enough hoops on hand!

Between that and the Octoberfest its looking like a VERY enjoyable weekend.

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real life wrote:

Steve 41oo wrote:
there is not the slightest evidence that god exists

What type of evidence are you referring to, Steve?

any

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real life wrote:

xingu wrote:
baddog1 wrote:
xingu wrote:
What I would like to know is what his fellow engineers would say to the statement that the sun, moon and stars were created after the earth, plants and trees (Genesis 1:1-19)?

What would his engineer friends say if you told them the sun stood still in the sky for 24 hours? (Joshua 10:13)

It would be unfair for me to speak for my friends on these passages because to the best of my knowledge, we have not spoken of them.

However, given the Christian engineers that I know - I imagine they would go directly to faith.

Faith over reason?

Is that the way to design a bridge?

I don't think baddog said they were designing a bridge.

You asked about his view of a historical event in the past.

:wink:

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actually I'm only joking

there are hundreds of proofs of gods existence

http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm

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Steve 41oo wrote:

real life wrote:
Steve 41oo wrote:
there is not the slightest evidence that god exists

What type of evidence are you referring to, Steve?
any

ok

If you want to know, for instance, if prayer (as described in the Bible) 'works' or not:

--Find out under what conditions God says He will answer prayer;

--Be completely certain that you meet those conditions; and

--Pray

For those who favor a scientific/ experimental approach, I can't see how you would have any objection to this.

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real life wrote:

xingu wrote:
The point is if your an engineer and your going to design something your going to use logic, reason that is backed up by math and past structural designs that work.

Why would you not use the same for religion? Why believe in something that is so totally false that no amount of reasoning, logic or science can support it?

That's not a strawman but a simple question?

It's a phony question.

Do you apply science when deciding who you will marry?

Do you use math when considering what to watch on TV?

Can science prove where you scratched yesterday morning?

You want to appeal to science for everything, without understanding the limits that science has.

You ducking and dodging again. You can't answer the question so your trying to discredit the question.

Give me the science that supports the Biblical myth that the earth, sun, moon, stars and plants were created AFTER the earth.

Don't tell me that math, logic and reason have nothing to do with this. It has everything to do with it. Religious people like you and Baddog say they believe this based on faith, not reason. So back to the question; why abandond reason, logic and science when it comes to religious beliefs?

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Is there proof God exists?

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