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Is there proof God exists?

 
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Nov, 2011 12:44 am
@Ashers,
Quote:
By the way, it's interesting to me to think of this discussion of self/god in respect to the objections to theism and what exactly constitutes atheism.


This is an interesting point.

Atheism is the rejection of the belief in deities. It isn't in itself a belief, it is merely a reaction to a belief. Religion presents it's god, and if you reject it you might be an atheist. But that doesn't say anything about what you believe it, only what you don't believe in.
But regardless of if you believe in a god or not, an atheist is still relating to the concept, and as a means of reinforcing the idea of self that is just as effective.
kYRANI
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Nov, 2011 12:08 pm
@Cyracuz,
I think atheists do have a belief system and that is why they reject God. I see two fundamental world views. One is that everybody and everything in the universe is just a collection of isolated parts, some of which are related to others but essentially all are separate. This world view adheres to materialism and chance as a basic truth. The other world view sees a wholeness or Oneness. The connection between everybody and everything in the universe is not on the physical plane but on a spiritual/mental plane. Thus these people believe that there are two aspects to reality, one is physical and the other is non-physical or spiritual. It is through the non-physical aspect that all things in the universe are related. And the reason is that this aspect is timeless and spaceless (a singularity), which is in a one to one relationship with everything in the universe. And that then provides the basis of the unity of all. It is the Mind of God. So those people all believe in God.
I believe the second world view is the real one, so I believe all atheists, while they have a right to choice, are all believing in unreality!
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Nov, 2011 09:11 pm
@kYRANI,
That is a bit beside the point, isn't it? My point is that the very term "atheism" is a direct response to "theism" and it's influence over people. It's the same with people who claim to be satanists. I once asked a satanist if he believed in god. He said he didn't, and when I pointed out to him that satan is merely a character in the same story that features god, he got really insulted. Satanism relates to christianity, in much the same way as atheism relates to theism. They both revolve around god. One is the embrace of the belief, the other a rejection of the belief, but in both the cases, the thing to notice are the wordes "of the beliefs". Regardless of wether you reject or emrace the beliefs, you are still relating to them.

And for the record, I share your view that everything can be thought of as a singularity, but the very moment you label it "god", you bring centuries worth of misconceptions and idiocy to the game, and in my opinion we are better off without it.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Nov, 2011 09:18 pm
@kYRANI,
If as you say atheists have a "belief system," exactly what do they believe? Do you understand the mathematical concept of negative and positive? When does a negative result?
kYRANI
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Nov, 2011 01:16 pm
@cicerone imposter,
This is not about any negative result. Atheists, at least from those that I have spoken to and those whose claims and testimonies I have read all appear to be gross materialists, ie they believe only in the physical reality and nothing beyond that. You have to believe in a non-physical realm as underpinning the physical realm if you are going to believe in God. And again from what I have heard and read none that believe in a non-physical realm as well as a physical one seem to be atheist. I never heard of an atheist who believes in a non-physical or spiritual/mental realm. That is why I set out the post above.
And to say something about satanists. One of their most distinguishing features is that that are deceivers, ie gross liars. They all believe that God exists, even the ones among them that call themselves atheists. What they have in common is that they are haters of God, they hate righteousness and Justice. They are immoral to the extreme and indeed deliberately do acts of extreme injustice. The word satanists certainly comes out of Christianity but these people call themselves evil and they are not only out of the Christian traditions, they are to be found in every society on earth.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Nov, 2011 02:03 pm
@kYRANI,
And I'm also 100% positive that there are no christian GROSS materialists. ROFLMAO So, your claim is that atheists are not intellectuals, but all christians are? Your observations and conclusions are all screwed up. Try to live in the real world if that's possible.
kYRANI
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Nov, 2011 08:41 am
@cicerone imposter,
I said nothing about Christian gross materialists. I said that there are evil people who call themselves Christians and use religion, (and not only Christianity), as a mask to hide behind. I have known women and men, some of whom look almost angelic, good church goers and bible readers etc and I discovered years later they were blacker than black in their hearts. They are evil and admitted as much -some even explicitly. And for the record gross materialists are those that believe ONLY in the material /physical realm and not in a spiritual realm.
Second I did not say that atheists are not intellectuals. Richard Dawkins is an atheist and an intellectual. I also did not say that all Christians are intellectuals. I don't know were you got that idea.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Nov, 2011 09:29 am
@kYRANI,
Quote:
Atheists, at least from those that I have spoken to and those whose claims and testimonies I have read all appear to be gross materialists, ie they believe only in the physical reality and nothing beyond that.


Then they speak as materialists, not atheists. It is actually possible to be religious and an atheist at the same time.

For instance: I don't believe that there are any deities responsible for creating the world. That makes me an atheist. But I do feel a spiritual connection to the world I live in, and I understand that there are forces beyond my comprehension at work in the universe. I believe that consciousness is the most fundamental "substance", and that everything originates from it. It is a very spiritual philosophy, but there are no deities, which makes me an atheist.
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Nov, 2011 09:31 am
@cicerone imposter,
The modern version of Christianity is one of the most materialistic religions of the world.
kYRANI
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Nov, 2011 09:42 am
@Cyracuz,
Yeah I agree with you. Christianity lacks the spiritual foundation owing to the notion that Jesus is God and other ideas, especially as preached by the "apostle" Paul. I think he was a fraud.
As for the idea of no deities. It is hard for the sake of worship to try and relate to some "power beyond our comprehension", so most people, through the ages have developed the concept of deities. God however is not a deity. It is beyond comprehension. From what you say, you sound like a theist. Pure awareness is the fundamental substance and pure awareness is Godliness.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Nov, 2011 11:10 am
@kYRANI,
Oh? And you can determine who the evil christians are? Where do you draw the line between saint and sinner? So, blacker than black makes them what, exactly? You're the judge?
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Nov, 2011 11:18 am
@kYRANI,
No, I am not a theist.
Theists endow their idea of god with a lot of human attributes such as identity and will, and then proceed to make assumptions about what god thinks is good and proper, wrong and sinful etc. based on their deification of an idea. The whole thing takes on a new dimension, and the most extreme find justification for murder in their idea, while the more moderate people restrict themselves to feeling superior to anyone who does not share their belief in this entity with personality.
Theists pray; they fold their hands and talk to god, an exercise that would be pointless if they didn't think that there was someone listening to their prayers. They fear the judgment of their god, believing that they will be held accountable for their actions in some afterlife.

I do not pray, though sometimes I meditate. I do not focus on an imagined deity. On the contrary, I seek to momentarily escape the experience of the entity that is "me".
I do not fear the judgment of some creator, but I am aware that every action I do is in itself a kind of judgment. It's like the saying goes: You will not be punished for your anger; you will be punished by your anger.

The thing about the core issues of religion is that the moment you try to create absolutes to express them, they become void of the content you seek to endow your absolutes with, which is why theism fails.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Nov, 2011 11:20 am
@Cyracuz,
Well stated; religion is self-defeating in many ways. You've outlined the main ones.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Nov, 2011 11:22 am
@Cyracuz,
It's true that religion is the "most materialistic" in this world. I've visited many churches, cathedrals, and religious buildings that glorifies their god at the expense of living humans.
0 Replies
 
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Nov, 2011 11:26 am
@cicerone imposter,
I would say that theism is self-defeating in may ways. Once you get past theism you come to realize that religion isn't about gods and dogma; it's about coming to terms with existing. In a way theism is a pre-fabricated solution, but it no longer fits how we understand the world.
The theism of christianity is older than the laws used by the Norwegian vikings. Anyone can see that those laws no longer suffice to govern our affairs, which is why they don't apply anywhere anymore....
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Nov, 2011 12:26 pm
@Cyracuz,
The few who understand
Quote:
which is why they don't apply anywhere anymore....
doesn't negate the simple fact that the majority on this planet still practice their "religions." This "condition" will not change any time soon.

Even when people become aware of the fact that no god exists, they can't come to change their beliefs, because they've devoted too much of their lives
to it. It's too painful a realization, and they do not want to admit they have been duped.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Nov, 2011 02:55 pm
@cicerone imposter,
The way I see it, the stories about god or gods are interpretations of ideas.
But the same is true for the big bang theory, for instance. It is an interpretation of various facts. We cannot say with 100% certainty that even though every fact checks out the theory is guaranteed to be sound. The main difference between the genesis and the big bang theory is that the first is based on concepts that were popular a long time ago, while the second is based on concepts that are popular today. But in the end they are both just stories, conceptualizations based on information we have collected. I think it comes down to what each individual wants to believe.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Nov, 2011 04:06 pm
@Cyracuz,
I've always had difficulty with both "stories" about how our universe was "created." I believe in evolution to the degree it can be confirmed through the sciences.
Cyracuz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Nov, 2011 04:37 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Yes, but even then there is a bit of detective work involved.
I am very interested in the worldview that some of the physicists who are working on unified field theory are presenting.
Procrustes
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Dec, 2011 07:16 am
@Cyracuz,
It comes back again to the idea that we cannot find any concrete reality to things but merely an explanation through conceptual means. However, physics may prove to have some useful outcomes with presenting such a theory (technology etc...) but the concept of 'God' is slowly becoming a semantic abstraction. The question is if the term can survive and evolve to have a respectable function in future societies.
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