Ok. Thanks.
Are you saying that the question about the existence of god is part of a larger complex network of meaning that has to be mapped before such a cuestion can be addressed?
Cyracuz,
Not quite. I am saying that the hypotheical "truth value" of a single atomic statement is insufficient to account for, or overturn the paradigm in which that statement is enmeshed.
Thus "God exists" has inumerably semantic linkages to concepts of "divinity" and "existence" . Such linkages ae embodied in the social systems and linguistic convention to the extent that the "existence" of tangible structures like the Catholic Church are de facto defining "the existence of God" irrespective of any "physical evidence".
(As Kuhn pointed out, a single counter-example would not topple "a theory" because that theory was enmeshed in a much larger paradigm.)
This has lead me to the conclusion that "existence" is about "relationship" not "truth" which is itself a matter of consensus. Ultimately an appeal to "physical reality" is really an appeal to "global consensus" since "physicality" is mutually inferred from common species specific perceptual systems. One need only consider the "existence " of "the colour red" with respect to a colour blind species to get the gist.
...in other words the question cannot be addressed without addressing the meaning of "existence"....and that analysis tends to dissipate the question !
Intersting. Truth is a matter of consensus. I agree with that, and also with your statement that existence is about relationship.
So I am thinking that the question of god's existence is unanswerable until we establish a concept of god we can relate to; a concept that ressonates as we act towards it...
Feel free to sink my ship if I'm sailing off... :wink:
Oops.. you sneaked that last post in there while I was writing my reply...
You are not sailing off...according to this view only "concepts" have "existence". They are structural nodes of interrelationship with "the shared world" and "each other." The fact that atheists have a negative or neutral relationship evoked by the "God concept" does not affect its "existence".
In other threads I have presented an idea I have that god does indeed exist as an abstract concept; a constructed reference point for categorizing abstract ideas and "entities" so that we can relate to them... This seems to go over well with what's presented here...
Come to think.. "I" exist also only as an abstract concept...
Correct...but "abstraction" merely implies another form of relationship not a "lack of reality".
One could argue that all we can ever relate to are abstract concepts.
I agree, but note that "we" already confirms that in this view "social reality" is axiomatic/a priori. This is in line with "abstract" not being the antithesis of "physical" but implying a nondualistic position neither "physical" nor "mental".
I think that I can answer this with a series of three definitions:
A exists in relation to B if A and B are in the same universe.
A and A are in the same universe.
If A and B are in the same universe, and B and C are in the same universe, then A and C are in the same universe.
If A and B have a casual relation, then A and B are in the same universe.
If A affects B, then A and B have a casual relation.
At this point, the defining terminates with "affects".
I could also use the word "exists" to mean "exists in relation to me (or you, since you are in the same universe as I).
Using these definitions, something always exists in relation to itself.
Using these definitions, other universes do not exist, since they are not in the same universe as I.
"In the same universe" is not symmetric.
I think that these definition area bit problematic, but they shall suffice, since this is not a quantifier. It is, instead, just decribing the "networks of things which affect each other."
I think that the idea of God has nothing to do with omnipotentence or omniscience or the creation of morality. I think that it has to do with justice. God is the "final arbiter" who shall bestow justice upon us all. It acts with accordance to our "sense of justice." There is, of course, no reason to believe that such a thing exists.
Joseph Campbell told a story about a minister who asked him whether he believed in a personal god. Campbell replied to the negative. The minister replied that they was probably no way then that he could prove to Campbell the existence of god. Campbell replied that if he could, what would be the use of faith.
coluber2001, it doesn't matter, because you haven't defined "God" and "exists."
I shall then define an object as "a set of 'rules' for determining future senses." Objects can never be reliable, because the universe can always be more volatile. "God" is essentially an unbounded object: it's rules say that there are no other, since it is omnipotent (see into "theodicy": if God is good, then he is not all powerful; if God is all powerful, then God is not good). Therefore, any sense manifestation can be the result "God." Therefore, all "God" is is a random set of sense manifestations and maniuplations of other objects.
What, indeed, is the use of a random set?
The problem here is that "the definer" and "the defined" are in constant flux. Static set theory doesnt work hence nor does binary logic.
A reading of "fuzzy logic theory" indicates the nuances. The "hungry guy" and "the apple" co-define each other. As the hungry guy gets less hungry the apple gets less apple-ish until the relationship of co-existence dissipates....neither is "left". A third party tends to see nothing of this "dynamic of existence". His snapshot half way through the proceedings might see "Fat guy chewing apple core" . The persistence of "things" is a myth evoked by the persistence of linguistic categories like "apple". Such persistence of "set membership" is functionally evoked for the purposes of prediction and control relative to human lifespans. The persistence of "a paternalistic caring God" is an expression of the desire to have ultimate prediction beyond the grave.
GOD EXISTS
The worst error and misguidance of the students of philosophy, the people of unbelief and the instinctual soul, lies in not recognizing God. Just as in the preceding story the trustworthy man said, "there can be no letter without a scribe, no law without a legislator," we too say the following:
A book, particularly one in each word of which a minute pen has inscribed another whole book, and in each letter of which a fine pen has traced a poem, cannot be without a writer; this would be entirely impossible. So too this cosmos cannot be without its inscriber; this is impossible to the utmost degree. For the cosmos is precisely such a book that each of its pages includes many other books, each of its words contains a book, and each of its letters contains a poem. The face of the earth is but a single page in the book of the cosmos. See how many books it contains. Every fruit is a letter, and every seed is a dot. In that dot is contained the index of the whole tree in its vastness. A book such as this can have been inscribed only by the mighty pen of a Possessor of Glory Who enjoys the attributes of splendour and beauty, and Who is the holder of infinite wisdom and power. Faith, then, follows inevitably on the observation of the world, unless one is drunk on misguidance.
Similarly, a house cannot arise without a builder, particularly a house adorned with miraculous works of art, wondrous designs, and amazing ornaments. As much art has been put into one of its stones as into a whole palace. No intelligence will accept that it could arise without a builder; definitely it needs a master architect. Moreover, within the building, veritable rooms take shape and change each hour with the utmost order and ease, just as if clothes were being changed, or as if scenes were passing across a cinema screen. We can say even that numerous little rooms are constantly being created in each of those scenes.
In like manner, the cosmos also requires an infinitely wise, all-knowing and all-powerful maker. For the magnificent cosmos is a palace that has the sun and the moon as its lamps and the stars as its candles; time is like a rope or ribbon hung within it, on to which the Glorious Creator each year threads a new world. And within the world that He thus threads on the string of time He places three hundred and sixty fresh and orderly forms. He changes them with the utmost orderliness and wisdom. He has made the face of the earth a bounteous spread that He adorns each spring with three hundred thousand species of creation, that He fills with innumerable kinds of generous gifts. This He does in such a fashion that they all stand apart from each other, quite separate and distinct, despite their being at the same time so close and intermingled. Is it possible to overlook the existence of the Maker of such a palace?
Again, to deny the existence of the sun, on a cloudless day at noon, when its traces are to be observed and its reflection is to be seen in every bubble on the surface of the ocean, in every shining object on dry land, and in every particle of snow - to make such a denial would be to rave like the deranged. For if one denied and refused to accept the existence of the single, unique sun, he would be compelled to accept the existence of a whole series of minor suns, each real and existent in its own right, as numerous as the drops and bubbles of the ocean, as countless as the particles of snow. It would be necessary to believe that each minute particle contains a huge sun, even though the particle is large enough only to contain itself. It would be an even greater sign of lunacy and misguidance to refuse one's assent to the attributes of perfection of the Glorious Creator, even while beholding the well-ordered cosmos that is constantly changing in wise and regular fashion, that is being ceaselessly renewed in disciplined manner. This, too, would be like the ravings of a lunatic, since it would then become necessary to believe and accept that absolute divinity is present in all things, even a particle. For every particle of air is somehow able to enter and work its effects upon every flower, fruit and leaf, and unless the particle be entrusted with this task by a Creator, it must know of itself the structure and form of all the objects it penetrates and affects. In other words, it must possess all-encompassing power and knowledge.
Every particle of soil is potentially capable of giving rise to all the different seeds that exist. If it is not acting under command, it must contain within itself equipment and instruments corresponding to all the various trees and plants in the world. Or, to put it differently, one must attribute to the particle such artistry and power that it is aware of the structure of each of them, knows the forms that each of them is caused to assume, and is capable of fashioning those forms. The same is true with respect to the particle and other realms of creation.
From this you can understand that in all things there are numerous and manifest proofs of God's Unity. To create all things from one thing, and to make all things into one thing, is a task possible only for the Creator of all things. Pay heed to the sublime declaration: "There is naught but proclaims His Glory with praise." For if one does not accept God, the One and Unique, one must accept gods as numerous as created beings.
belikenother: must you cut-and-waste indiscriminately? have you no thoughts of your own?
yawn...don't you just love cut-and-paste dogmatics that don't even quote their source?
So, rather than argue about the possibility of proof existing, why not have those who claim that proof *does* exist, provide said proof ?
The existence of God is too evident to need any arguments. Some saintly scholars have stated that God Himself is more manifest than any other being, but those who lack insight cannot see Him. Others have said that He is concealed from direct perception because of His Self-manifestation's intensity.
However, the great influence of positivism and materialim on science humanity makes it necessary to discuss such arguments. This way of thinking reduces existence to what can be directly perceived and thereby blinds itself to the invisible dimensions of existence, which are far more vast than the visible. Since we must strive to remove the veil drawn by materialism and positivism, we will review briefly some of the traditional demonstrations for God's necessary existence.
Before doing so, it is worth reflecting upon the historical fact that, since the very beginning of human life, the overwhelming majority of humanity has believed in God's existence. This alone is enough to establish God's existence. Unbelievers cannot claim intellectual superiority over believers, for the latter contain many innovative scientists, scholars, researchers and, most importantly, saints and Prophets (the experts in this field). Also, people usually confuse the non-acceptance of something's existence with the acceptance of its non-existence. While the former is only a negation or a rejection, the latter is a judgment needing proof. No one has ever proven, and cannot prove, God's non-existence. In contrast, countless arguments prove His existence.
This point may be clarified through the following analogy: Imagine a large palace with 1,000 entrances, 999 of which are open and one of which appears to be closed. How can you claim that the palace cannot be entered? This is what unbelievers do by confining their (and others') attention only to the door which appears to be closed. The doors to God's existence are open to everybody, provided that they sincerely intend to enter through them.
Some of those doors?-the demonstrations for God's existence?-are as follows:
Creation is contingent. In other words, it is equally possible for something to exist or not to exist. Also, it is possible for something to come into existence at any time, place, and form, and with any character. No thing or person has any role in determining how, when, or where it comes into existence, or what character and features it will have. Some power has to choose. This power must be infinite, and have absolute will and all-comprehensive knowledge. Necessarily, this power is God.
Things are finite. Everything is changeable. Given this, everything is contained by time and space and therefore must have a beginning and an end. That which has a beginning needs a beginningless one to bring it into existence. As an unending regress through the originator of each originator is unacceptable, reason demands the existence of one who is infinitely self-existent and self-subsistent, who does not change. This one is God.
Life. Life is a riddle but transparent. It is a riddle that scientists cannot explain with material causes, and transparent because it shows or reflects a creative power. Through both of these characteristics, life declares: "God created me."
Orderliness in creation. Everything in the universe, and the universe as a whole, displays a magnificent harmony and order. This is seen in every item and in their harmonious interrelationships. This is true to such an extent that one part's existence necessitates the whole's existence, just as the whole's existence requires all its parts' existence. A single deformed cell may lead to the whole body's death. Similarly a single pomegranate requires for its existence the collaborative and cooperative existence of air, water, soil, and the sun, as well as their well-balanced mutual cooperation. Such harmony and cooperativeness point to a creator of order, one who knows everything in all its relations and characteristics, one who can put everything in order. The creator of that order is God.
Artistry in creation. All creation exhibits an overwhelming artistry of dazzling worth. Yet it is created, as we see it, easily and quickly. Furthermore, creation is divided into countless families, genera, species, and even smaller groups, each of which has so many members. Despite this variety and abundance, we see only orderliness, art, and ease. This shows the existence of one with an absolute power and knowledge: God.
Finality in creation. Nothing in the universe is pointless. As ecology shows in particular, everything in creation, no matter how apparently insignificant, has a significant role in existence and serves a certain purpose. The chain of creation up to humanity, the last link in creation, is evidently directed toward a final purpose. Since this requires a wise one who pursues certain purposes in creation, and since only humanity has the consciousness to pursue those purposes, the wisdom and purposiveness in creation necessarily point to God.
Mercy and providence. All living and non-living beings are in continuous need of many things, even a small portion of which they cannot supply by themselves. For example, the universe's operation and maintenance demand the existence of such universal laws as growth, reproduction, gravitation, and repulsion. However, these "natural" laws have no external, visible, or material existence; their existence is completely nominal. How can something that exists only nominally, which has no knowledge and consciousness, be responsible for a miraculous creation requiring absolute knowledge and wisdom? How can it have the power of choice and preference? So, one who has all these attributes has established these natural laws and uses them to veil His operations for a certain purpose.
Plants require air, water, heat, and light. But they can obtain none of these on their own. Our needs are infinite. Fortunately, all of our essential needs, from the very beginning of our earthly existence to our death, are met by someone beyond our own capacity and intervention. We enter this world and find everything prepared to meet our all sense, intellectual, and spiritual needs. This clearly shows that one who is infinitely merciful and knowledgeable provides for all created beings in the most extraordinary way, and causes all things to collaborate to that end.
Mutual helping. As mentioned above, everything in the universe helps everything else. This mutual helping is so comprehensive that, for example, just as almost all things (including air, water, fire, soil, the sun and sky) help us in the most extraordinarily prearranged manner, so do bodily cells, members, and systems cooperate to keep us alive. Soil, air, water, heat, and bacteria cooperate to keep plants alive. This cooperation and mutual helping, observed among unconscious beings but requiring knowledge and deliberate purpose, show the existence of one who arranges them in that miraculous way.
Cleanliness. Until we began over-polluting our air, water, and land, the natural world was cleansed and purified continually. Even now, it preserves its original purity in many regions where the ways of modern civilization have not yet taken hold. Have you ever wondered why nature is so clean, why forests are so clean although many animals die there every day? Have you ever considered that if all flies born in a single summer were to survive, our planet would be covered with layers of fly bodies? Have you ever noticed that nothing is wasted in nature? Every death is the beginning of a new birth. For example, a dead body decomposes and is integrated into the ground. Elements die and are revived in plants; plants die in animal and human stomachs and are promoted to the higher rank of life.
This cycle of death and revival is one reason for the universe's continual cleanliness and purity. As well as bacteria and insects, winds and rain, black holes, and oxygen all serve to sustain the universe's purity. This purity points to one who is all-holy, whose attributes include cleanliness and purity.
Countenances. Countless human beings have lived since Adam's creation. Despite their common origin?-a sperm and ovum, which are formed from the same sort of foods consumed by one's parents?-and although they are composed of the same structures, elements, organisms, every person has a unique countenance. This shows one with an absolutely free choice and all-encompassing knowledge, and He is God.
Divine teaching and directing. To direct our lives and learn what is good or bad for us takes at least 15 years. However, many animals acquire this knowledge soon after their birth. A duckling can swim as soon as it hatches. Ants start to dig nests in the ground when they leave their cocoons. Bees and spiders quickly learn how to make their honeycombs and webs, respectively, that are such marvels that we cannot produce them. Who teaches young eels born in the Atlantic Ocean to find their way to their ancestral home in the Pacific Ocean? The birds' migration is still a mystery. How can you explain such astounding facts other than by attributing them to the teaching or directing of one who knows everything and has arranged the universe and its inhabitants in such a way that they can direct their lives?
The spirit and the conscience. Despite enormous scientific advances, we cannot explain life. Life is the gift of the Ever-Living One, Who "breathes" a spirit into each embryo. Our ignorance of the spirit's nature and its relation with the body does not negate its existance. The spirit is sent to the world to be perfected and acquire a state appropriate for the other life. Our conscience is the center of our inclinations toward right and wrong. Everybody feels this conscience on some occasions. So, the spirit and conscience are strong arguments for the existence of One God.
Our innate dispositions and history. We are innately disposed to good and beauty, and adverse to evil and ugliness. We also are inclined to virtues and moral values. Unless corrupted by external factors and conditions, we seek the good and moral values, which are universal. The values we seek naturally are the same virtues and morality promulgated by all Divine inspired religions. As history witnesses, humanity has never lived without a religion. Just as no system has superseded religion in human life, the Prophets and religious people always have been most influential people and left indelible marks on human history. This is another irrefutable proof for the existence of the One God.
Human intuition. We feel many intuitions and emotions, which are a sort of message from immaterial realms. Among them, the intuition of eternity arouses in us a desire for eternity, which we seek to fulfill in many ways. However, it can be realized only through belief in and worship of the Eternal One Who inspired this intuition and desire in us. True human happiness lies in satisfying this desire for eternity.
Consensus. If a few people who never tell the truth come and tell us at various times the same thing, we may believe them in the absence of any alternative. But when thousands of Prophets who never lied, and countless saints and believers who adopted truthfulness as a most essential pillar of belief, all agree that God exists, how can we reject their testimony for that of a few liars?
The Qur'an and other Scriptures. Proofs for the Qur'an's Divine origin are also proofs for God's existence. The Qur'an teaches with great emphasis and force, as does the Bible in its uncorrupted parts, the existence of One God.
The Prophets. Thousands of Prophets came and guided humanity to truth. All of them were justly renowned for their truthfulness and other praiseworthy virtues. All gave priority to preaching the existence and Oneness of God.
USAFHokie80 wrote:So, rather than argue about the possibility of proof existing, why not have those who claim that proof *does* exist, provide said proof ?
Because there is no proof, at least not the type of proof that you are asking for. We see the type of universe that we ask for. If we are existential or atheist in our beliefs, we see a cruel, uncaring universe without a God. If we are disposed toward faith, we receive some kind of confirmation of our faith, but not objective proof. If we seek experience of God, it comes as internal spiritual experience. We all seem to get what we want.
Is there a way to ban people who cut and paste long screeds on this forum? I'm sure that people who post spam are banned, but shouldn't cutting and pasting be disallowed also? Its nearly as disruptive and doesn't contribute much to the sharing of ideas since nobody reads them.
