Religion and Circumcision

Had to look up what Stockholm Syndrome was.

Opportunity for learning.

Yes Eorl, but even deeper, since it's been going on for generation after generation.

Look at foot binding, that went on for 1000 years. Same thing, women looked down on those that didn't do it, and your prospects for marriage increased the smaller your foot.

It took on a real sexual fetish, but I'm thinking it started because the richer, more powerful the man, the more he could afford to have a useless woman around.

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

Extropy wrote:
It is not a big issue.
Therefore, I do not think much about it, as long as people are not forced.

How can an infant make an informed consent?

True for an infant, however today many adult males will offer an informed consent for themselves.

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Cyracuz wrote:

What's infinitely worse is girls having their genitals mutilated at birth. That still happens in some countries.

Even in so-called civilized countries.

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Extropy wrote:

Actually, I wrote incorrectly. As long as it is male circumcision, there is nothing that does much harm, as long as it is done correctly by people with proper training.

For the non-Jew, that person would be your urologist. For the person, who's Jewish, that person probably would be a Rabbi.

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By the way, adult males wanting to convert to Judaism must undergo a circumcision.

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kate4christ03 wrote:

Quote:
I don't get how some people think circumcision is what god wants them to do. If we were meant to have no foreskins, why are we supplied with them at all?

In the pentateuch,(1st five bks of ot) the jews were required by God's law to circumcise all male babies at 8 days old. This was a way to stand out from other groups of people who didn't worship Jehovah. Uncircumcised men in the ot were viewed as pagans and unclean. To this day, jewish people still do circumcisions to uphold a religious practice.
Mind you this part is my opinion. But to answer your question, on a purely religious stance, maybe God supplied males with foreskin, so that when he mandated circumcision, it was a sign of those that followed him as opposed to those that rejected him?

The circumcision of Jewish males is a sign of the covenant between God and man and the first male to be circumcised , as described in the Torah was Abraham ( who was rather elderly, when he had it done. ).

Quote:

The commandment to circumcise male children was given to Abraham in the Torah (Genesis 17:714 and repeated in Leviticus 12:3):

And God said unto Abraham: 'And as for thee, thou shalt keep My covenant, thou, and thy seed after thee throughout their generations. This is My covenant, which ye shall keep, between Me and you and thy seed after thee: every male among you shall be circumcised. And ye shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of a covenant betwixt Me and you. And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every male throughout your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any foreigner, that is not of thy seed. He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised; and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. And the uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that should shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken My covenant. [English translation from 1917 JPS Tanach.

Jewish Virtual Library

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yes thank you miller

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"Moses and his sons were not circumcised. (Exodus 4:25) Although Moses apparently prohibited circumcision during the 40 years in the wilderness (Joshua 5:5) Joshua reinstituted circumcision at Gilgal after the death of Moses.(Joshua 5:2-10)"

www.cirp.org/library/history

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Abraham was 90 years old when he performed a circumcision with a knife on himself.

See:

http://www.aboutcirc.com/abraham.htm

A fresco,( depicting the circumcision of Abraham ) dating from 1502, in the vault of the Strozzi Chapel, Santa Maria Novella, Florence.

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

real life wrote:
Phoenix brought up the issue of informed consent. Obviously, if one cannot (but should be allowed to ) exercise 'informed consent' as a newborn to circumcision, then the same problem exists in the abortion question, does it not?

You are comparing apples with oranges. An infant is a legal human being. A fetus is not.

The legal status is an arbitrary one. Medically, the unborn is a living human being.

The Dred Scott decision also arbitrarily denied to blacks any status , or standing, as 'legal persons' before the US courts.

But it doesn't mean they weren't persons; only that they had been unjustly denied the rights of persons.

How history repeats itself.

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Circumcision in Australia

Today the vast majority of Australian boys grow up happily with the bodies that nature gave them. Although circumcision was common from the 1920s to the 1960s, medical authorities have been discouraging and advising against the practice since the 1970s, and it is now pretty much a thing of the past. Most parents want their boys to be as happy and healthy as possible, and they know that leaving their penis to develop naturally is the best way to secure these outcomes.

Despite this, a few die-hard enthusiasts for circumcision keep popping up in the media, full of alarmist claims about the terrible risks of retaining the foreskin. This propaganda is contrary to the advice issued by responsible medical bodies such as the Royal Australasian College of Physicians and is intended to confuse and mislead parents, and scare them into demanding circumcision for their boys. Most doctors are opposed to circumcision and will not perform the operation without genuine medical need (a rare situation). The fanatics have given up trying to influence responsible medical and scientific bodies; instead, they aim to use the popular media to frighten parents into putting pressure on doctors to agree to their demands.

Source: http://www.circinfo.org/

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Quote:

The legal status is an arbitrary one

"The age of consent is the minimum age at which a person is considered to be capable of legally giving informed consent to any contract or behaviour regulated by law with another person...

The age of consent varies widely from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. The median seems to range from 14 to 16 years, but laws stating ages as young as 12 and as old as 21 do exist.

www.wikipedia.com

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by Tina Rosenberg huh?

Any chance you have a link to the actual study, Miller?

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[quote="Miller"]In both, the circumcised men caught the AIDS virus half as often as the uncircumcised control group.[/quote]

Sounds like they circumcise people, tell them to screw around for a while and them come back to be tested for AIDS...

Quite honestly, I'd rather teach my son how to use a condom than mutilate him.

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Cavalier or Roundhead?

I'm a Roundhead.

Big firking deal.

Got my foreskin snipped at two weeks of age. I'm so traumatised by it. Rolling Eyes

My son had the double hernia operation at three months of age.

He woke up five hours later, and wanted to play.

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Miller wrote:

Extropy wrote:
Actually, I wrote incorrectly. As long as it is male circumcision, there is nothing that does much harm, as long as it is done correctly by people with proper training.

For the non-Jew, that person would be your urologist. For the person, who's Jewish, that person probably would be a Rabbi.

A mohel, actually. I don't believe that all Rabbis do this, it's a special role.

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Actually, the best person to choose to perform a circumcision regardless of your religion would be a mohl.

They perform them for non-Jews all the time.

An sbstetrician delivers let's say 100 babies a year, 50 are male, let's say half in the U.S. get circumcised....that 25 a year. How many of the docs refer the parents to someone else? Basically, a physician may perform 12 to 25 a year.

How many does a mohl do?Find A Mohl

There's mohls listed who have over a thousand under their belt (no pun intended) and have 25, 30, 40 plus years experience.

From what I understand, the Queen of England chose a mohl to circumcise her sons....it just makes sense, they are more experienced.

Plus, they work for tips.. Rolling Eyes

BTW, Reformed Jews DO NOT have to be circumcised.

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Builder wrote:

Cavalier or Roundhead?

I'm a Roundhead.

Big firking deal.

Got my foreskin snipped at two weeks of age. I'm so traumatised by it.

My son had the double hernia operation at three months of age.

He woke up five hours later, and wanted to play.

You're a dork.

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echi wrote:

You're a dork.

Coming from you, that's a compliment.

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Religion and Circumcision

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