Religion and Circumcision

Phoenix32890 wrote:

Extropy wrote:
It is not a big issue.
Therefore, I do not think much about it, as long as people are not forced.

How can an infant make an informed consent?

Same way they do before they are aborted.

Given the option, I think most would prefer to live rather than die.

But since 'informed' implies one of legal age, perhaps we should wait to abort until the child is over 18 years of age and we have obtained his/her consent to be exterminated.

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So now you are against circumcision, real life? I doubt it.

Funny, I'm sure you now connect circumcision and abortion in your head because of our discussion about the mother's rights to mutilate in utero?

(If I remember it right, you think mutilation of both the unborn and the born is terrible, unless the bible says otherwise...eg circumcision.)

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From the American Cancer Society

Quote:

New Study Shows Benefit of Male Circumcision
May Reduce Partner's Cervical Cancer Risk

Women are less likely to develop cancer of the cervix if their partners are circumcised men rather than men who are not circumcised, said a report in The New England Journal of Medicine (Vol. 346, No. 15: 1105-1112).........

from MSNBC:

Quote:

U.N. urges adult men to get circumcised
Evidence indicates it can reduce spread of HIV by up to 60 percent

GENEVA - U.N. health agencies recommended Wednesday that heterosexual men undergo circumcision because of "compelling" evidence that it can reduce their chances of contracting HIV by up to 60 percent.

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Eorl wrote:

So now you are against circumcision, real life? I doubt it.

Funny, I'm sure you now connect circumcision and abortion in your head because of our discussion about the mother's rights to mutilate in utero?

(If I remember it right, you think mutilation of both the unborn and the born is terrible, unless the bible says otherwise...eg circumcision.)

Didn't say I was against circumcision.

Phoenix brought up the issue of informed consent. Obviously, if one cannot (but should be allowed to ) exercise 'informed consent' as a newborn to circumcision, then the same problem exists in the abortion question, does it not?

You, who rail against circumcision, are completely inconsistent on the issue of informed consent on abortion.

The studies I've posted indicate that , far from male circumcision being some type of 'mutilation', it may carry significant health benefits with little or no downside. Laughing

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Being American, my husband wanted our son to be circumcised, too!
I told him, our son could make that decision, when he's old enough to decide for himself.
Answers my husband: Then he's never going to do it!
Me: So be it!

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The main reason to put a baby through so much pain, at the most impressionable age possible(!),
is to raise a man who is insensitive and acts out a lot.

http://www.circumcision.org/response.htm

Quote:

Over a dozen studies confirm the extreme pain of circumcision. It has been described as "among the most painful [procedures] performed in neonatal medicine."( 2) In one study, researchers concluded that the pain was "severe and persistent."

A description of the procedures at http://www.cirp.org/library/procedure/plastibell/
"Some doctors will use local anaesthesia, but this is by no means common."

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real life wrote:

Phoenix brought up the issue of informed consent. Obviously, if one cannot (but should be allowed to ) exercise 'informed consent' as a newborn to circumcision, then the same problem exists in the abortion question, does it not?

You are comparing apples with oranges. An infant is a legal human being. A fetus is not.

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Quote:

A way to stand out? What did they do, flash each other? Unless they walked around naked, who would know? Seems a nice tasteful nose ring or a secret handshake would have worked better.

well i guess since only jews circumcised, that's how they made the distinction.

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kate4christ03 wrote:

well i guess since only jews circumcised...

Patently false.

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Quote:

Phoenix brought up the issue of informed consent. Obviously, if one cannot (but should be allowed to ) exercise 'informed consent' as a newborn to circumcision, then the same problem exists in the abortion question, does it not?

Good point Real Life.

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Chai, no it's not. Read the context of which the statement was written.

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kate4christ03 wrote:

Chai, no it's not. Read the context of which the statement was written.

Your point does not follow the thread....the thread is about peoples opinion about the subject. What you said is false. This is not a discussion of the old or new testament.

now, if you wanted to qualify that with saying at a certain place, at a certain time, amongst certain people in history....but we're not talking about one certain place and time and people to the exclusion of others.

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chai actually my point does. Go back up and read my initial post. I was answering a question posted. I was talking about one certain people, and why they believe it was/is God ordained.

And for that question, i would love to see what other religious groups besides jews, believe circumcision is God ordained.

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Quote:

I don't get how some people think circumcision is what god wants them to do. If we were meant to have no foreskins, why are we supplied with them at all?

Quote:

In the pentateuch,(1st five bks of ot) the jews were required by God's law to circumcise all male babies at 8 days old. This was a way to stand out from other groups of people who didn't worship Jehovah. Uncircumcised men in the ot were viewed as pagans and unclean. To this day, jewish people still do circumcisions to uphold a religious practice.
Mind you this part is my opinion. But to answer your question, on a purely religious stance, maybe God supplied males with foreskin, so that when he mandated circumcision, it was a sign of those that followed him as opposed to those that rejected him?

chai this was my initial post in responce to cyracuz's question.

Sorry, I still am not clear on how to quote correctly.

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While not explicitly required in the Koran, some parts of Islam follow the rite of circumcison under the edict of following the ways of Abraham.

Coptic Christians circumcize as the follow the Old Testament as well.

Mormons, while not required, lean toward favoring circumcision, as they see this as following their tradition dating back to 600 bc.

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in certain middle eastern countries, some islamic communities will not only circumcise males but also females. I read an article once of a muslim doctor who visited a village and saw first hand the women of the village holding a young girl down and circumcising her. He tried for months to get this practice stopped, but the biggest problem he faced were the women of the community. Those that refused to be circumcised or allow their daughters to be, were shunned by other women in the village.

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Unfortunatley, female circumcision is MUCH more wide spread than that.

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Yes Chai it is. I was just citing one situation i have heard about. From things i've read, its a growing problem and there are many within islam that are opposing it. But, as of yet, in some of the middle eastern countries, nothing is being done because its looked upon as religious mandate. You stated that its not explicitly in the Koran, so do you have any thoughts as to why female circumcision is being performed?

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Male domination.

The women who go along with it, coming to believe it is correct, are entangled in a hegemonic relationship.

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Yep. I see a fine line between female misogyny and Stockholm Syndrome.

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Religion and Circumcision

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