Morality- which is the better choice?

I wonder about the cultural differences here.

I think very few Australians would choose to live at the cost of 50 others, strangers or otherwise....but we all grew up on legends of self sacrifice in war, usually for others - in the sense that it was almost never on our own soil.

OmSigDAVID wrote:

Eorl wrote:

I wonder about the cultural differences here.

I think very few Australians would choose to live at the cost of 50 others, strangers or otherwise....but we all grew up on legends of self sacrifice in war, usually for others - in the sense that it was almost never on our own soil.

From what my father has told me- that was true of Americans at one time too, so I hesitate to ascribe it to different cultures as much as different times, unless you're saying that present day Australians are generally more altruistic than present day Americans. Do you think that's true?

But since you've broached the subject, I wonder what all the American WWII veterans (those who are still living) who sacrificed their youth and health for the freedoms of others (strangers) many of whom have responded on this thread to say that they'd never sacrifice their life for anyone or anything they didn't know or care about- would think or feel reading this thread. I wonder what the families of those who died defending our freedoms would think.
What do you think has changed within people in the last fifty years? If Hitler was operating today, would these same people say, "It's not my problem- I don't know any of those people."

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I 'd be most loathe indeed
to sacrifice my life out of deference to CULTURE.

How about an ideal? How about American democracy if it was threatened by a resurgence of communism?

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Let culture screw itself.
David[/b]

Culture is us- and we are (screwing ourselves) into the ground- if you ask me.

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OmSigDAVID wrote:

Eorl wrote:

I wonder about the cultural differences here.

I think very few Australians would choose to live at the cost of 50 others, strangers or otherwise....but we all grew up on legends of self sacrifice in war, usually for others - in the sense that it was almost never on our own soil.

From what my father has told me- that was true of Americans at one time too, so I hesitate to ascribe it to different cultures as much as different times, unless you're saying that present day Australians are generally more altruistic than present day Americans. Do you think that's true?

But since you've broached the subject, I wonder what all the American WWII veterans (those who are still living) who sacrificed their youth and health for the freedoms of others (strangers) many of whom have responded on this thread to say that they'd never sacrifice their life for anyone or anything they didn't know or care about- would think or feel reading this thread. I wonder what the families of those who died defending our freedoms would think.
What do you think has changed within people in the last fifty years? If Hitler was operating today, would these same people say, "It's not my problem- I don't know any of those people."

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I 'd be most loathe indeed
to sacrifice my life out of deference to CULTURE.

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How about an ideal? How about American democracy if it was threatened by a resurgence of communism?

OK; u caught me.
My abhorence of collectivism and authoritarianism
is intense enuf to move me to a Kamakasie attack against communism.
When Kennedy ALLEGEDLY was president,
I believed that, because of his maladministration,
I 'd actually have to DO that, when communist tanks were rolling down my street.

I will point out that death is much nicer
than living in slavery under communism.

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Let culture screw itself.
David[/b]

Culture is us- and we are (screwing ourselves) into the ground- if you ask me.

YourDictionary.com takes a broader vu
than just that " Culture is us "
Behold:
" culture definition
n.
1.
a. The totality of socially transmitted behavior patterns, arts, beliefs, institutions, and all other products of human work and thought.
b. These patterns, traits, and products considered as the expression of a particular period, class, community, or population: Edwardian culture; Japanese culture; the culture of poverty.
c. These patterns, traits, and products considered with respect to a particular category, such as a field, subject, or mode of expression: religious culture in the Middle Ages; musical culture; oral culture.
d. The predominating attitudes and behavior that characterize the functioning of a group or organization.
2. Intellectual and artistic activity and the works produced by it.
3.
a. Development of the intellect through training or education.
b. Enlightenment resulting from such training or education.
4. A high degree of taste and refinement formed by aesthetic and intellectual training.
5. Special training and development: voice culture for singers and actors.
6. The cultivation of soil; tillage.
7. The breeding of animals or growing of plants, especially to produce improved stock.
8. Biology
a. The growing of microorganisms, tissue cells, or other living matter in a specially prepared nutrient medium.
b. Such a growth or colony, as of bacteria.
tr.v. cul·tured, cul·tur·ing, cul·tures
1. To cultivate.
2.
a. To grow (microorganisms or other living matter) in a specially prepared nutrient medium.
b. To use (a substance) as a medium for culture: culture milk.

I refuse to sacrifice my life because culture says I shud.
David

I do get a real kick out of heroism though.

1. YourDictionary.com takes a broader vu
than just that " Culture is us "
Behold:
" culture definition
n
a. The totality of socially transmitted behavior patterns, arts, beliefs, institutions, and all other products of human work and thought.
b. These patterns, traits, and products considered as the expression of a particular period, class, community, or population: Edwardian culture; Japanese culture; the culture of poverty.
c. These patterns, traits, and products considered with respect to a particular category, such as a field, subject, or mode of expression: religious culture in the Middle Ages; musical culture; oral culture.
d. The predominating attitudes and behavior that characterize the functioning of a group or organization.
2. Intellectual and artistic activity and the works produced by it.
3.
a. Development of the intellect through training or education.
b. Enlightenment resulting from such training or education.
4. A high degree of taste and refinement formed by aesthetic and intellectual training.
5. Special training and development: voice culture for singers and actors.

David wrote:

Quote:

1. YourDictionary.com takes a broader vu
than just that " Culture is us "
Behold:
" culture definition
n
a. The totality of socially transmitted behavior patterns, arts, beliefs, institutions, and all other products of human work and thought.
b. These patterns, traits, and products considered as the expression of a particular period, class, community, or population: Edwardian culture; Japanese culture; the culture of poverty.
c. These patterns, traits, and products considered with respect to a particular category, such as a field, subject, or mode of expression: religious culture in the Middle Ages; musical culture; oral culture.
d. The predominating attitudes and behavior that characterize the functioning of a group or organization.
2. Intellectual and artistic activity and the works produced by it.
3.
a. Development of the intellect through training or education.
b. Enlightenment resulting from such training or education.
4. A high degree of taste and refinement formed by aesthetic and intellectual training.
5. Special training and development: voice culture for singers and actors.

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Don't give me a hard time David-you knew what I meant. People get the culture they choose. Our culture is a direct result of who we (the people) are and what we choose to surround ourselves with or what interests we pursue. This changes from country to country and generation to generation within a country-but we all live in the culture we've created through/with/by our own choices-so I guess I should say we get the culture we deserve-but that seems a bit harsh to those of us who would have made different choices.

In the election of 2000,
I feared n dreaded that Gore wud win,
and freedom wud perish, with America never to live
in libertarianism or Individualism again;
I envisioned a downward spiral of progressive losses of personal freedom.
( I expect a repetition of that scenario in the next election. )
If I were surrounded by a culture of collectivists or authoritarians,
I wud NOT join in their sentiments to be in harmony with the CULTURE.

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In the same vein though, I guess if you'd choose to stand by and watch as someone in a desperate situation died-knowing that you could help them with them also knowing that you could help them-but have decided not to-

Let 's not lose sight of the conditions designated in the question, to wit:
whether I 'd commit suicide to save 50 strangers.

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you'd understand if the situation was reversed and you were in a desperate situation
and you cried and screamed for help and someone just stood there and watched as you died.

Of course, I 'd understand.
That self-restraint is fully paradigmatic.
I am keenly aware that we need to take care of ourselves
and that we shud be prepared to do so.

There was another case wherein a woman was repeatedly stabbed,
to death in a crowded subway station during the morning rush hour.
The killer cud have easily been taken out from behind whilst stabbing;
no one did anything. ( I suspect that all of the observers were well in
compliance with all gun control laws, at the time.
That 's the IMPORTANT thing. )

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David were you living in NY when Kitty Genovese was killed?

I was about 2 miles away.

When I found out what had happened,
that she 'd been stabbed to death over about an hour,
I was thinking that I 'd have taken a gun and helped her out,
if I 'd known about it. I remember an incident in earlier years,
when ( to a very limited extent ) I did something a little like that
when I defended the kid next door from a bully who was a friend of my father.
No weapons involved.

Concerning Kitty 's misadventure,
the neighbors ( who did not call police )
explained that thay 'd been used to hearing screams at nite
from bars in the neighborhood from noisy drunks.

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I read that story (I think it was in the NY Post or Daily News they used to run this weekly series on Sundays -
it was called "The Justice Story"- I loved reading those- but talk about nightmares).

I remember those.

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Anyway, I was like seven or eight years old when I read about that and I remember even then, I thought those people who didn't help her were just incredibly cruel cowards. And I remember thinking how hopeful she must have been at first when lights went on and she knew people were aware of her plight and then how her feelings must have changed to disbelief and despair when she realized no one was coming to help her.

Q.E.D.: the penalty for obeying gun control laws is DEATH,
with no appeal. Your life depends on being able to take care of yourself.

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Asher- I said the same thing. I think it'd be a gut thing- either you'd do it or you wouldn't.
I also think it'd be the same whether you loved someone or not.
Either you'd have the courage to help someone or you wouldn't.

What if u DISLIKE the victim ?

In the election of 2000,
I feared n dreaded that Gore wud win,
and freedom wud perish, with America never to live
in libertarianism or Individualism again;
I envisioned a downward spiral of progressive losses of personal freedom.
( I expect a repetition of that scenario in the next election. )
If I were surrounded by a culture of collectivists or authoritarians,
I wud NOT join in their sentiments to be in harmony with the CULTURE.

There was another case wherein a woman was repeatedly stabbed,
to death in a crowded subway station during the morning rush hour.
The killer cud have easily been taken out from behind whilst stabbing;
no one did anything. ( I suspect that all of the observers were well in
compliance with all gun control laws, at the time.
That 's the IMPORTANT thing. )

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David were you living in NY when Kitty Genovese was killed?

I was about 2 miles away.

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When I found out what had happened,
that she 'd been stabbed to death over about an hour,
I was thinking that I 'd have taken a gun and helped her out,
if I 'd known about it. I remember an incident in earlier years,
when ( to a very limited extent ) I did something a little like that
when I defended the kid next door from a bully who was a friend of my father.
No weapons involved.

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Concerning Kitty 's misadventure,
the neighbors ( who did not call police )
explained that thay 'd been used to hearing screams at nite
from bars in the neighborhood from noisy drunks.[/b]

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Q.E.D.: the penalty for obeying gun control laws is DEATH,
with no appeal. Your life depends on being able to take care of yourself.

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Asher- I said the same thing. I think it'd be a gut thing- either you'd do it or you wouldn't.
I also think it'd be the same whether you loved someone or not.
Either you'd have the courage to help someone or you wouldn't.

What if u DISLIKE the victim ?

Ashers wrote:

I do get a real kick out of heroism though.

I 'd heroicly defend my OWN well being and contentment.

OmSigDAVID wrote:

Ashers wrote:

I do get a real kick out of heroism though.

I 'd heroicly defend my OWN well being and contentment.

Yes David, I'd expect nothing less. Let's not be careless with life, a very precious and fragile thing that it is.
I did mean heroism in the widest sense though, not just the self sacrificing kind
but the, 'fighting the good fight' kind too.

David said:

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In the election of 2000,
I feared n dreaded that Gore wud win,
and freedom wud perish, with America never to live
in libertarianism or Individualism again;
I envisioned a downward spiral of progressive losses of personal freedom.
( I expect a repetition of that scenario in the next election. )
If I were surrounded by a culture of collectivists or authoritarians,
I wud NOT join in their sentiments to be in harmony with the CULTURE.

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I wasn't only talking about political choices. I'm also talking about what and who we choose to endorse in terms of the arts and music and other forms of media. I'm talking about the choices we all make in terms of what to contribute in terms of our own offerings of expression- the conversational language and tone we find acceptable, or determine to be unacceptable. Even the way in which we speak on this forum is shaping our culture. All of us can either participate positively or negatively because we have the right to contribute however or whatever we want (within the rules of TOS) but I think we need to be aware that it's all shaping our culture.

I think we are surrounded by a culture of collectivists and authoritarians- they're just not economically or materialistically collectivists.
But in terms of authoritarian- oh my god- people can't even function without a fricking consensus most of the time and god help you if you can't seem to follow the "rules" - either implied or implicit-of a culture or society- especially in America. Censure will be swift and sure to follow.

I 've noticed that, as to ordinary ettiquette.
The designated ceremonies must be followed with perfect precision, or else !

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By the way - I hope Gore runs and if he does- I think he'll win

If he DOES, we 'll get permanently screwed out of our freedom,
and the Constitution will be treated as a book of fairy stories,
to be referred to only when some part of it supports
the intentions of government. America will not be a free country;
some folks assert that it no longer is anyway,
but it 'd get progressively a lot worse.



.

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He deserves it- he had it stolen from him the first time.
It'd be perfect karma for him to get it this time.

No; he lost it in the electoral college, fair n square.
He admitted it himself.

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We shall see....

Only if he gets the Demo nomination,
which does not seem likely; is he running ?

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There was another case wherein a woman was repeatedly stabbed,
to death in a crowded subway station during the morning rush hour.
The killer cud have easily been taken out from behind whilst stabbing;
no one did anything. ( I suspect that all of the observers were well in
compliance with all gun control laws, at the time.
That 's the IMPORTANT thing. )

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Yes, ironic isn't it what Bush's spokeswoman said on the VT thing- she tried to cover his ass by referring to the fact that laws were not followed. Well, yeah, duh...

A lot of times, criminals ( including homicidal & suicidal maniacs )
do not obey laws.

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But we wouldn't have to live so protectively and defensively if we developed a different type of national culture.

I doubt THAT; some kind of brainwashing ??

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I think this could be achieved in the US if we made some small but fundamental changes in our national attitudes. But I don't think it will ever happen because Americans are too intent for fighting to preserve their rights- even the ones that will kill them.

YEAH, I 'm in THAT army.

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David were you living in NY when Kitty Genovese was killed?

I was about 2 miles away.

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What would you have done if you'd been a resident on that street
and you'd heard her being attacked?

( It is my understanding that the murderer stabbed her,
left her, and then returned several times over about an hour,
to continue stabbing her. )
I 'd have offered to ESCORT her.
That probably wud have been enuf; if NOT
( and the killer persisted in my presence ), I 'd have shot him.

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When I found out what had happened,
that she 'd been stabbed to death over about an hour,
I was thinking that I 'd have taken a gun and helped her out,
if I 'd known about it. I remember an incident in earlier years,
when ( to a very limited extent ) I did something a little like that
when I defended the kid next door from a bully who was a friend of my father.
No weapons involved.

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I think I'd have helped her even if I'd only had a frying pan to hit the guy over the head with.
At least it would have been two on one then- and the guy had a knife- not a gun.

UNDERSTOOD. I hope that your defensive ordnance wud be adequate to the occasion.

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Concerning Kitty 's misadventure,
the neighbors ( who did not call police )
explained that thay 'd been used to hearing screams at nite
from bars in the neighborhood from noisy drunks.[/b]

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Well they would say that, wouldn't they?
Sounds a lot better than saying, "We just didn't care."

It cud be possible that thay DID hear inconsequential screams
from drunks every nite.

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Q.E.D.: the penalty for obeying gun control laws is DEATH,
with no appeal. Your life depends on being able to take care of yourself.

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Or we could try to reshape our culture so that our children's children might not have to worry about carrying concealed weapons so they can play in the park or sit in a desk at school without worrying about violence befalling them.

A ) At the age of 8, I armed myself with a 2 inch .38 caliber revolver.
From that time on, I did not WORRY neither in parks, nor in school.
I never had any trouble and I had peace of mind.

B ) Something that cannot be reshaped
is the right of any person to defend himself from violent depredation,
and to have immediate access to the equipment that is necessary
to accomplish that task.
That cannot be reshaped constitutionally, without an amendment
repealling the 2nd and 9th Amendments.
That can never be MORALLY reshaped;
the right to self defense is natural and immutable.

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Asher- I said the same thing. I think it'd be a gut thing- either you'd do it or you wouldn't.
I also think it'd be the same whether you loved someone or not.
Either you'd have the courage to help someone or you wouldn't.

What if u DISLIKE the victim ?

If you stood and watched someone kill someone you didn't like- and your specific motivation for inaction was that dislike-wouldn't that make you an accessory to murder?
I don't know- I'm asking- you're the lawyer.

No, that wouldn't make him an accessory - how could it? He's not aiding and abetting.

Mame wrote:

No, that wouldn't make him an accessory - how could it? He's not aiding and abetting.

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Mame- I didn't know- in fact, I didn't think so, that's why I was asking.
But I was thinking along the lines of the "failure to protect" charge that I know exists in terms of child abuse cases. I don't know if it's a federal or state by state statute, but when I worked in the US, there were several women I worked with who had been charged with failure to protect their children, because although they didn't do a thing to abuse the child themselves, they (through negligence or lack of common sense or self-esteem or whatever) allowed their children to be in situations in which someone else abused them.

Sounds like the principle of criminal negligence.
The basic idea is that if someone opts to generate a child,
then he or she shud take reasonable care of him
( e.g., feed him ).
If I choose to buy a dog,
I can and shud be held to taking reasonable care of him.
By my choice, I 'd have gotten myself into that situation.

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I also thought that if the dislike could be proven,

Suppose he ADMITS it.


As a thought experiment,
let us imagine that Mr. Jones owes Mr. Smith more money
than he HAS, giving rise to some concern and emotional stress,
in Mr. Jones.

Let us further imagine that the debtor becomes a witness
to his creditor being mortally wounded, in a mugging,
as predatory criminals pummel him with tire irons n crow bars.

Can u concieve of the debtor receiving this perception
with some sense of relief from his financial embarrassment ?

Will Mr. Jones deem it his lucky day ?

In considering his freedom from any duty to become involved,
let us remember the 13th Amendment to the Supreme Law of the Land.

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it might point to motive- even subconsciously.

On the day that we become criminally liable
for the phenomena of our subconscious minds,
we will abide in a despotism equal to the worst of communism,
and much worse than nazism.

The North Koreans and Red Chinese actually DID that.
During the Korean War, we found many communist prisoners,
and dead commies, carrying pocket notebooks, diaries,
of all of their thoughts for the day, for the inspection
of the commissar. It was against the law for them to think of sex;
instead, thay were ordered to think of the communist party.
If the commissar doubted their candor,
thay cud be shot, at his discretion.

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But as David has stated- there's no mandate that adults have to act to help or protect other adults.

How about if it was an adult who was about to abuse or kill a child,
and another adult- not related to that child- stood by and watched without acting?
Could that be failure to protect?

Factually, by definition, it is failure to protect,
in that he did not protect;
however, there is no duty to do so.


I remember an incident, a few years ago,
when I was entering a restaurant.
I saw a boy who looked about 10 or 11
whose hand was very black with dirt.
He was gazing at his hand.

Somehow, I got the thought that he was about to lick his hand.
I felt impelled to tell him not to do that,
but I restrained myself, with difficulty,
and was shocked and repelled, when he actually did it,
but I knew that I had NO RIGHT to tell him what to do.
I knew him not, and had no authority over him.

I found it emotionally painful, but I minded my own business
and kept my mouth shut; ( unlike him ).

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Or is that only applied to relatives of the child?

The parental relationship is unique.

However, let us observe that for centuries,
many jurisdictions have enacted many humorously ridiculous statutes
( e.g., I believe that I recall an ordinance of Philadelphia ( ?? )
requiring that if a man n a woman sit on a park bench,
there must be 12 inches of daylite between them ).
Hence, there might be ( constitutionally doubtful )
obscure statutes or ordinances somewhere
requiring intervention.


I 've heard that such is actually the law, in France.
The French have little respect for the rights of the individual.

David

Personally, I think it would depend on any given situation. But I would like to believe I have the mortal foritude to help strangers, good, bad or indifferent. A life is a life.

I seriously doubt it is a decision one can make without actually being in the situation. To quote various heroes I have watched growing up...

Where there is life there is hope. Till I die, I can help. And if I die in the process of helping, then hopefully it wasn't a risk taken in vain.

Self-sacrifice and suicide are two very different things. Self-sacrifice is willing giving your life for others, 'worth' not withstanding. Suicide is selfishly taking your life because you can't deal with life.

Here's another quote, 'willing to die that others may live' (my husband's tatoo, he was corpsman in the navy.) For most military personnel, if not all, they don't want to die, but if it is required to do so to maintain our freedom to debate this issue, they will.

For those that face life and death situations on a daily basis (i.e. Docters, cops, fire fighters, military personnel, etc.) it's risk they are willing to take. For those not facing life and death decisions on a daily basis and are still willing to take that risk, whether it is for loved ones or strangers, good people or bad, it is noble to the outsider, but no doubt a spur of the moment decision to risk taker.

Kimmie