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Why we all love war

 
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Mar, 2007 10:18 pm
Quote:
snookered said:
You think?


Hi snookered. Even though my statement was rather simple, it plays out in so many different ways. I have yet to see a war that wasn't due to a power struggle, yet as simple as the thought is - the knowledge of such doesn't lessen the number of wars men fight.

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snookered said:
The only ones who love war have never been in combat.


Do you think so? Sometimes it seems that people who have been in combat actually develop a taste for war.


Having never been in combat I can only go with you for the most part on this one (and I agreed for the most part anyway)…but what about sociopaths?

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Geligesti said :
Only good men start wars ... who would fight, to the death, for an evil person?


You think? Look up the exploits of any of the Great Conquerors, and you will see they killed many people who I daresay wanted nothing but to be left in peace. Then you have people like Bin Laden. Have you ever done any research on the Vikings? It seems stories of their practices sickened even their own population. Some people even think Bush is evil.
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snookered
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Mar, 2007 10:55 pm
vikorr wrote:
Quote:
snookered said:
You think?


Hi snookered. Even though my statement was rather simple, it plays out in so many different ways. I have yet to see a war that wasn't due to a power struggle, yet as simple as the thought is - the knowledge of such doesn't lessen the number of wars men fight.

Hi vikorr, I was agreeing with you. War has to boil down to power. Other reasons for war, which also boil down to power; Land-Israel and Palestine, oil-Iraq, Nuclear weapons - most of the world vs. Iran.

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snookered said:
The only ones who love war have never been in combat.


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vikorr said: Having never been in combat I can only go with you for the most part on this one (and I agreed for the most part anyway)…but what about sociopaths?

Are still talking about War as in combat? "Aiden" would have us believe that football is war.

I don't believe that real sociopath would make it through the physical, or Basic training, or even think about joining an Army.
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aidan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Apr, 2007 01:40 am
Quote:
Are still talking about War as in combat? "Aiden" would have us believe that football is war.

No, football is a game, Snookered- at least from my point of view- although some coaches (and I've seen this first-hand as well) would have their players believe that victory on the pitch or field is as important as a victory on the field of some battle.


Actually, I wouldn't have you believe anything you don't want to. By the same token, I'd hope that you would allow me to have my beliefs, even if they're different from yours. I think the world is a much happier place when people are able to believe what they want to believe. Maybe if everyone would be allowed their own beliefs without pressure to conform or change, there would be fewer wars- you think? Laughing

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George Simmel was another great thinker who saw the "spirit" that was in human perception. In his essay on the matter of ?'secret' he "showed how man needed to hold things in awe, surround them with mystery". In his great essays we can see "in precise and detailed analysis how idealism blends with materialism, how inseparable the "idea" in a world of matter". He reveled that society itself is a game; people play not in, but at, society.

This is another quote I thought was interesting Coberst, but again, I wonder if you think this has changed for most people. Maybe my view is skewed by reading this forum, but my impression is that most people can't abide mystery, and won't assign awe to anything that hasn't been laid out and put in perfect logical order- in other words, explained to their standards of scientific method, and even after it's been explained, they'll do their own fact check, thanks very much.
Awe is an emotion that seems to have gone by the wayside for the most part. If a person doesn't believe in anything, and nothing has meaning- where does awe even fit in anymore?
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coberst
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Apr, 2007 04:09 am
Aidan

?'Cabalistic' (engaged in intrigues) is the term used to identify the characteristic of our urge for mystery, our passion for games and secrets; without it "man is just not man". Humans have an overwhelming desire to invest life with great significance. Wo/man is not a player in society but is a player at society.

Civilization has become an uncritical style of life that sacrifices the free energies of the citizen to a self-absorbed and largely fictional pattern of social meaning.

Shakespeare's insight, as he proclaimed that life is a stage and we are the actors on that stage of life, leaves us pitiful in nude exposure of our self to our self, and places us in a position were we can no longer ?'just pretend'. Social theory has the task of comprehending the fictions, the games, the make-believe, we humans display in our effort to integrate our self into society; sociology has not failed in illuminating the games people play.

I have been reading about mythology written by Joseph Campbell. In his attempt to make it possibly for the reader to comprehend how myth works he speaks about the human ability to ?'make-believe'.

He speaks of the universality of childhood make-believe and of how this same characteristic is exhibited in human rituals. For example he uses the Catholic Church practice of mass when the priest changes the wine and bread into the body and blood of Christ. In other words it seems to be inherent in humans to make-believe and in the process to truly believe and, in truly believing, experience a form of ecstasy.

Such is our experience of understanding. In the process of trying to understand I create a model and then somewhere in this process of creating and modifying my model I pass to the point of believing the truth of my model thus the feeling of ecstasy.

In an attempt to explain to the novice the meaning of myth Campbell says that the "grave and constant" in human suffering may, and sometimes does, lead to an experience that is the apogee of our life. This apogee experience is ineffable (not capable of expression). Campbell considers this to be true because it is verified by individuals who have had such an experience.

"And this experience, or at least an approach to it, is the ultimate aim of religion, the ultimate reference of all myth and rite…The paramount theme of mythology is not the agony of quest but the rapture of revelation."

Charles Fourier provides us insight into the nature of wo/man when he explains the original passion of sapiens. ?'Cabalistic' (engaged in intrigues) is the term he uses to identify this characteristic of our urge for mystery, our passion for games and secrets; without it, Fourier claims "man is just not man". Humans have an overwhelming desire to invest life with great significance. Wo/man is not a player in society but is a player at society.
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Apr, 2007 10:22 am
[
Quote:
Geligesti said :
Only good men start wars ... who would fight, to the death, for an evil person?


sar·casm (särkzm)
n.
1. A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound.
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snookered
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Apr, 2007 05:49 pm
Quote:
Aidan
This man was saying that in his unit in Iraq, there was one person who was chosen (at first by unspoken tacit agreement, but later by a spoken and agreed upon group strategy) to be the recipient of all the negative and bad feelings of the rest of the group. He didn't go into detail about how or why this particular person was chosen-but he did say that it was unifying and strengthening to the group to have this person on which to project all of the group anger and negativity-in other words a common place (in the form of a human being) in which to "sink their hate".

Interesting, huh? "Hate sink"- I think it's an incredibly accurately descriptive term for what some humans will do to another, as you said, to "fuel one's own aggrandizement and immunity".


It was probably "this" man that initiated this act of a BULLY. He was probably a bully as a kid, as a teenager and finally supposedly as a soldier. For all you know it was that one group of bullies. All this incredibly, accurately, descriptive term, (phew your wordy) is merely the same act portrayed on school yards around the word. A victim of a few bullies, scapegoat or not.
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talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Apr, 2007 11:30 pm
There is a fine line between love and hate. The killer of your loved one will receive the love that has been transposed into hate.
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snookered
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Apr, 2007 11:41 pm
talk72000 wrote:
There is a fine line between love and hate. The killer of your loved one will receive the love that has been transposed into hate.


I thought we were considering, "Why people like war?" Most people realize there is a fine line between love and hate.
The idea of love being transposed into hate, is well, stupid.
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aidan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Apr, 2007 12:44 am
coberst wrote:


Quote:
?'Cabalistic' (engaged in intrigues) is the term used to identify the characteristic of our urge for mystery, our passion for games and secrets; without it "man is just not man".

In terms of humans needing or wanting mystery, now that I understand in what sense you meant, this makes more sense to me, and I agree that this is characteristic of humans- I thought you were talking about mysticism. I guess it's important to remember though, when I question whether humans are still interested in and able to believe in phenomena that can't be explained, I should distinguish between humans living in developed and technologically advanced societies and human beings who don't. I think that distinction makes a huge difference in terms of what people believe, and how much they do or don't seek out mystery (of the mystical sort) in their lives and in turn how much they are willing to invest it with value.
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Humans have an overwhelming desire to invest life with great significance.

I was reading about the "lost generation" in Japan. These are the children of the generation of Japanese workers who pretty much embodied the term "work ethic" and apparently there is a trend for young adults in Japan now, to have just thrown in the towel in terms of work, or playing at their particular society. Although some of them come from privileged backgrounds, have gone to University and could participate in society and work in any way they chose-they have opted out- they sit at home and play computer games.
Do you think that in developed countries, the lack of "mystery" has contributed to a lack of meaning and purpose for some people?
I was thinking about that-that as people have denied that there is anything to believe in, they've focused that energy on themselves- and if they can't find meaning or value within themselves-they try to fill that hole with "stuff" or fame - and when that doesn't work- they just give up and find ways to make the time (their life) pass.

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Wo/man is not a player in society but is a player at society.
Civilization has become an uncritical style of life that sacrifices the free energies of the citizen to a self-absorbed and largely fictional pattern of social meaning.

Yes, like a big game. Why do you think some people have mastered it, while others just flat out refuse to play?


Quote:
Shakespeare's insight, as he proclaimed that life is a stage and we are the actors on that stage of life, leaves us pitiful in nude exposure of our self to our self, and places us in a position were we can no longer ?'just pretend'. Social theory has the task of comprehending the fictions, the games, the make-believe, we humans display in our effort to integrate our self into society; sociology has not failed in illuminating the games people play.

As I said, I think some people just refuse to play- or if they do, they play it their way, without worrying about how anyone else plays it- without enforcing their rules on anyone else. Those are the people I truly respect.

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"And this experience, or at least an approach to it, is the ultimate aim of religion, the ultimate reference of all myth and rite…The paramount theme of mythology is not the agony of quest but the rapture of revelation."

Yes. And maybe all these wars are in search of that phenomena of apogee or revelation and that feeling of rapture.
To me, it feels like a connection. And when that connection is right- with whatever it may be- another person, a piece of music, a certain place at a certain time, an accomplishment or achievement that I didn't think I'd make or have, or even just an idea- there's no other feeling like it.

Snookered wrote:
Quote:
It was probably "this" man that initiated this act of a BULLY. He was probably a bully as a kid, as a teenager and finally supposedly as a soldier. For all you know it was that one group of bullies.

Yes. Don't you think that war is bullying- taken to the extreme? That's why I was saying that the definition of war should not just be confined to armed conflict within or between nations.

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All this incredibly, accurately, descriptive term, is merely the same act portrayed on school yards around the word. A victim of a few bullies, scapegoat or not.

Yes, but I don't think you should minimize what the cost is to those who are bullied.

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(phew your wordy)

I know- bad habit Laughing . But I did find hate sink to be "incredibly, accurately descriptive" to the point that it was worth the extra words. I mean, I can picture it-it just so accurately describe what one turns someone else into when they decide to bully, whether as an individual, small group, organization or country.
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snookered
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Apr, 2007 09:23 pm
Snookered wrote:
Quote:
It was probably "this" man that initiated this act of a BULLY. He was probably a bully as a kid, as a teenager and finally supposedly as a soldier. For all you know it was that one group of bullies.

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Yes. Don't you think that war is bullying- taken to the extreme? That's why I was saying that the definition of war should not just be confined to armed conflict within or between nations.
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No, I do not believe war is an act of bullying in any extreme, except possibly Bush and his "short Mans Bravado," to take a war to the wrong country.
Bullies always pick someone they believe can be dominated. Guys growing up always run into bullies. It's funny how fast a bully will become meek at the least bit of resistance.
Quote:
All this incredibly, accurately, descriptive term, is merely the same act portrayed on school yards around the word. A victim of a few bullies, scapegoat or not.

[quoteYes, but I don't think you should minimize what the cost is to those who are bullied.
Quote:

I wasn't aware that I was minimizing the cost of being bullied. It can caustic to a person constantly being bullied.
I was under the impression that the person who described the "hate-sink" term to you, thought it to be very prevelant in the Iraqi war.

Quote:
(phew your wordy)

I know- bad habit Laughing . But I did find hate sink to be "incredibly, accurately descriptive" to the point that it was worth the extra words. I mean, I can picture it-it just so accurately describe what one turns someone else into when they decide to bully, whether as an individual, small group, organization or country.


I believe that this is where I entered the discussion.
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aidan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Apr, 2007 02:21 am
Quote:
No, I do not believe war is an act of bullying in any extreme, except possibly Bush and his "short Mans Bravado," to take a war to the wrong country.

I disagree. War (when it's entered into offensively) is a bid for control.
Bullies bully to help themselves believe they have and can maintain at least the illusion of control.
I think the impetus for war and bullying spring from similar sources.
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snookered
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Apr, 2007 11:02 am
aidan wrote:
Quote:
No, I do not believe war is an act of bullying in any extreme, except possibly Bush and his "short Mans Bravado," to take a war to the wrong country.

I disagree. War (when it's entered into offensively) is a bid for control.
Bullies bully to help themselves believe they have and can maintain at least the illusion of control.
I think the impetus for war and bullying spring from similar sources.


Of course a war is entered for control. Bush (who is a bully) declares this war as "defensive." To stop Terrorists where they live. One doesn't (enter) a war defensively.
Obviously you haven't ever been bullied to any real extent. Bullies do have control over their victims. Than can maintain this control until the victim uprises.
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aidan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Apr, 2007 01:39 pm
Quote:
Obviously you haven't ever been bullied to any real extent.

No, not really (to my face at least, in real life). The only time I can remember someone trying to bully me was when I was in about fifth or sixth grade, this short kid with bright red hair named Jelly Bean (it wasn't a mean name-he accepted it and liked it all the way through highschool even after he grew) used to chase me home from school. Well, about the third day, I saved my apple from lunch and kept it in my brown paper lunch bag, and when he started to run after me, I just stood my ground and swung the bag and hit him in the head with it. He backed off, and shocked, he started laughing. We ended up being good friends.
So I think you're right-the trick is to fight back and not become a willing victim.

Quote:
Bullies do have control over their victims.

Sometimes though it is just an illusion of control. Some "victims" also get something out of the relationship, and cooperate manipulatively to keep it alive. And sometimes the bully is more pitifully needy than the victim- that's why they feel the need to act so socially inappropriately. It feeds an insecurity that is often much more massive than that of any of their chosen victims.
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pswfps
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 May, 2007 11:52 am
"Why do we all love war?"

It's a long thread so I am unaware if this has already been said:-

The thrill is in victory. Humans love victory. Achievement. The pattern of accomplishment is self-reinforcing: To overcome a common enemy provides greater resource for the victor and also serves to crystalise group identity. With greater resource and group identity, the tendancy for war is increased. The trait is an example of a positive feedback loop in the complex, albeit somewhat abstract, process of evolution.
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coberst
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 May, 2007 03:14 pm
pswfps wrote:
"Why do we all love war?"

It's a long thread so I am unaware if this has already been said:-

The thrill is in victory. Humans love victory. Achievement. The pattern of accomplishment is self-reinforcing: To overcome a common enemy provides greater resource for the victor and also serves to crystalise group identity. With greater resource and group identity, the tendancy for war is increased. The trait is an example of a positive feedback loop in the complex, albeit somewhat abstract, process of evolution.


One of the reasons we love war is because it verifies that my group is better than your group, it verifies that my God is better than your God, it verifies that my heroic action is better than your heroic action. My self-esteem is constructed upon these symbolic values that we have created. Plus, of course, ?'there is money in it'.

What do the following entities have in common: fascism, capitalism, communism, political parties, and religions? They all have a common characteristic that can be called "group mind".

What is striking is that members of these entities often undergo a major change in behavior just by being members of such entities. Under certain conditions individuals who become members of these groups behave differently than they would as individuals. These individuals acquire the characteristics of a ?'psychological group'.

What is the nature of the ?'group mind', i.e. the mental changes such individuals undergo as a result of becoming a group?


A bond develops much like cells which constitute a living body?-group mind is more of an unconscious than a conscious force?-there are motives for action that elude conscious attention?-distinctiveness and individuality become group behavior based upon unconscious motives?-there develops a sentiment of invincible power, anonymous and irresponsible attitudes--repressions of unconscious forces under normal situations are ignored?-conscience which results from social anxiety disappear.

Contagion sets in?-hypnotic order becomes prevalent?-individuals sacrifice personal interest for the group interest.

Suggestibility of which contagion is a symptom leads to the lose of conscious personality?-the individual follows suggestions for actions totally contradictory to person conscience?-hypnotic like fascination sets in?-will an discernment vanishes?-direction is taken from the leader in an hypnotic like manner?-the conscious personality disappears.

"Moreover, by the mere fact that he forms part of an organized group, a man descends several rungs in the ladder of civilization." Isolated, he my be a cultivated individual; in a crowd, he is a barbarian?-that is, a creature acting by instinct. "He possesses the spontaneity, the violence, the ferocity, and also the enthusiasm and heroism of primitive beings."

There is a lowering of intellectual ability "pointing to its similarity with the mental life of primitive people and of children…A group is credulous and easily influenced?-the improbable seldom exists?-they think in images?-feelings are very simple and exaggerated?-the group knows neither doubt nor uncertainty?-extremes are prevalent, antipathy becomes hate and suspicion becomes certainty.

Force is king?-force is respected and obeyed without question?-kindness is weakness?-tradition is triumphant?-words have a magical power?-supernatural powers are easily accepted?-groups never thirst for truth, they demand illusions?-the unreal receives precedence over the real?-the group is an obedient herd?-prestige is a source for domination, however it "is also dependent upon success, and is lost in the event of failure".
------------------------------------------------

I have read that some consider objectivism to be a cult rather than a philosophy; I asked my self what is the difference between a philosophy and an ideology. I turned to Freud and his book "Group Psychology and the Analysis of the Ego" for my answer. I discovered that Freud had turned to the Frenchman Gustave Le Bon for an understanding of group behavior.

Gustave Le Bon was a French social psychologist, sociologist, and amateur physicist. His work on crowd psychology became important in the first half of the twentieth century. Le Bon was one of the great popularizers of theories of the unconscious at a critical moment in the formation of new theories of sociology.
English translation Group Psychology and the Analysis of the Ego, 1922) was explicitly based on a critique of Le Bon's work. The quotes in this post are from this book.




Wo/man worships and fears power; we enthusiastically give our loyalty to our leader. Sapiens are at heart slavish. Therein lay the rub, as Shakespeare might say.

Freud was the first to focus upon the phenomenon of a patient's inclination to transfer the feelings s/he had toward her parents as a child to the physician. The patient distorts the perception of the physician; s/he enlarges the figure up far out of reason and becomes dependent upon him. In this transference of feeling, which the patient had for his parents, to the physician the grown person displays all the characteristics of the child at heart, a child who distorts reality in order to relieve his helplessness and fears.

Freud saw these transference phenomena as the form of human suggestibility that makes the control over another, as displayed by hypnosis, as being possible. Hypnosis seems mysterious and mystifying to us only because we hide our slavish need for authority from our self. We live the big lie, which lay within this need to submit our self slavishly to another, because we want to think of our self as self-determined and independent in judgment and choice.

The predisposition to hypnosis is identical to that which gives rise to transference and it is characteristic of all sapiens. We could not function as adults if we retained this submissive attitude to our parents, however, this attitude of submissiveness, as noted by Ferenczi, is "The need to be subject to someone remains; only the part of the father is transferred to teachers, superiors, impressive personalities; the submissive loyalty to rulers that is so widespread is also a transference of this sort."

Freud saw immediately that when caught up in groups wo/man became dependent children once again. They abandoned their individual egos for that of the leader; they identified with their leader and proceeded to function with him as their ideal. Freud identified man, not as a herd animal but as a horde (teeming crowd) animal that is led by a chief. Wo/man has an insatiable need for authority.

People have an insatiable need to be hypnotized by authority; they seek a magical protection as when they were infants protected by their mother. This is the force that acts to hold groups together, intertwined within a mutually constructed but often mindless interdependence. This mindless group think also builds a feeling of potency. The members feel a sense of unity within the grasp of their leadership.

?'Why are groups so blind and stupid?' Freud asked; and he replied that mankind lived by self delusion. They "constantly give what is unreal precedence over what is real." The real world is too frightening to behold; delusion changes this by making sapiens seem important. This explains the terrible sadism we see in group activity.
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Dedshaw
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 May, 2007 03:21 pm
its human nature to destroy ourselves...we are doomed...some of us arnt as violent, but as the saying goes...a person is smart....people are dumb....and thats the truth....the basic idea is fighting for what we think is right, religiouns and personal beliifes....and if you have billions of ppl who think diffreenlty then you, wellllll your gonna have a hard time gettin along...sucks we all live on the same planet eh? criminals and murderers and such roaming the streets...get into trouble...half the coutnry wants capital punishment the other half doesnt.....and just by watching the news you can tell we are all screwd....because everyone just keeps gettin more and more and more and more violent and sick and morbid, killing animals and babies and going on killing sprees......flying planes into buildings, car bombs....oh yea...we are in for a grave future...this is kinda off topic but think about aliens for a minute, even if they did exist its obvious their behind hidden from the people...the govt. knows that mass amount of ppl would go haywire from it...ppl cant handle **** enough as it is cuz we're all ready killin each other..
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