Why we all love war

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Why we all love war.

It is human nature to constantly seek "fuel for one's own aggrandizement and immunity". Otto Rank says "The death fear of the ego is lessoned by the killing of the other; one buys one's self free from the penalty of dying, of being killed". Is there any surprise then to discover that human kind is constantly engaged in war?

The ego can consign others to death without a ?'second thought', when such will provide a sense of personal security. This is why war comes so naturally for sapiens. Considering the fact that we now have the WMDs to destroy all citizens in one single cataclysm, is there any doubt regarding the necessity that humans begin quickly a process of self-learning in order to comprehend our nature so as to possibly prevent this logical fate?

The price of our natural animal narcissism is that we will, when pressured, willingly sacrifice another in our place; with one very remarkable exception; the exception to this rule is, of course, the hero. Heroism is an amazing reversal of the rule of routine values. Heroism is another thing that makes war so wonderful and uplifting. War has become modern wo/man's ritual for the emergence of heroes. We launch our self into uncritical hero worship as a catharsis of own fears.

"The logic of Scapegoating, then, is based on animal narcissism and hidden fear. If luck, as Aristotle said, is when the arrow hits the fellow next to you, then Scapegoating is pushing the fellow into its path?-with special alacrity if he is a stranger to you.

The logic contained in killing others in order to protect our own life makes clear anything that may puzzle us regarding the frequency of war in human history. When I kill an enemy and thereby affirm the power of my life, then, certainly the staging of massive life-and-death struggles affirms our whole society. The outsider ponders known incidents when the mob delighted in watching the prolonged death of someone; we need not ponder if we comprehend sapiens' drive to survive. "They are weak and die; we are strong and live." "My God is stronger than your God".

The Nazis provide an example of this phenomenon. The dedicated themselves to the ?'final solution', to large scale sacrifices of human life after 1941 when it was becoming evident that they were losing. The Jews were singled out as the scapegoat for the economic and political woes of Germany in the mid twentieth century.

Many of the quotes are from "Escape from Evil"?-Ernest Becker

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Coberst- my sister is currently doing a degree in business administration and management and she was telling me about this very interesting conversation that took place in one of her classes, that reminds me somewhat of the phenomenon of scapegoating that you bring up here.

There was a man in her class who had served a tour of duty in Iraq from which he had only recently returned. When the subject of human relationships within an organization (especially at work) came up, he mentioned a concept called a "hate sink". She'd never heard of it, and was asking me if I'd ever run across the term. I hadn't, so she explained it to me. Apparently, a hate sink serves the same purpose as a scapegoat.

This man was saying that in his unit in Iraq, there was one person who was chosen (at first by unspoken tacit agreement, but later by a spoken and agreed upon group strategy) to be the recipient of all the negative and bad feelings of the rest of the group. He didn't go into detail about how or why this particular person was chosen-but he did say that it was unifying and strengthening to the group to have this person on which to project all of the group anger and negativity-in other words a common place (in the form of a human being) in which to "sink their hate".

The rewards to the group were seen to be beneficial enough that the repercussions to this chosen person were no longer of any concern to them. She said this man expressed no embarrassement at having participated in this activity and expressed no concern for the person chosen to fulfill this role for his group. She said she asked him what happened to the person-and he responded that he didn't know and didn't care.

Interesting, huh? "Hate sink"- I think it's an incredibly accurately descriptive term for what some humans will do to another, as you said, to "fuel one's own aggrandizement and immunity".

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Aidan

Human behavior can be very freightening.

I had heard that expression of using the phrase 'heat sink' before' In the electronics business a piece of equipment will have heat sinks that are pieces of metal upon which an electronic component is mounted so that the heat sink would absorb the heat generated by the device. I have also heard the phrase that a home is an infinite 'money sink'. Any home owner can recognize the meaning of this term.

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Quote:

Human behavior can be very freightening.

Yeah, we're always lugging stuff around...

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I came to the conclusion many years ago, that behind every war, was a power struggle :wink:

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vikorr wrote:

I came to the conclusion many years ago, that behind every war, was a power struggle :wink:

Science informs us that there is much more behind human behavior than our common sense tells us.

The question is why do we behave in the manner that we do? We have the sciences of psychology, sociology, anthropology, and psychiatry to study such things and to acquire a comprehension of such matters. We do not ?'see' what is going on all around us because we have lived in the middle of such behavior all of our lives. We can ?'see' only what we are prepared to ?'see'.

Some wise person said "know thyself". We have no way of knowing our self until we begin to study what these sciences have learned and can tell us. If we wish to follow the wise admonition "know thyself" we will begin the process of learning about the findings of these sciences.

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A related concept was expressed another way years ago. The idea was that if one wanted world peace, one would have to fake an invasion from Mars.
This idea was actually carried out by Orson Welles:

http://www.transparencynow.com/welles.htm

By humankind having to rally against "the other" a bond would be formed.
Apparently, one of the main drives of the human being is for power, and control. Sadism, on the personal level, is the ultimate control of another human being. The sadist has so much control, that he actually has a life and death power over another individual.

In groups, this same drive for power and control is observed in wars. This need for power and control is so prevalent in human society, that when one occasionally hears of some peaceful aboriginal group, the people in that group become a curiosity, something to be studied by anthropologists as an anomaly.

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We have no way of knowing our self until we begin to study what these sciences have learned and can tell us.

Then how do you explain the Buddha, and enlightened person who "knew himself".

Also, that phrase was said to be inscribed in the temple of Apollo at Delphi in ancient Greece, and it has been attributed to at least five ancient Greeks:

Chilon of Sparta (Chilon I 63, 25)
Thales of Miletus
Socrates
Pythagoras
Solon of Athens

(From wikipedia on "know thyself")

All of them were men who lived long before the sciences you advocate. Science is cold and calculating, and there's more to human nature than that. To know thyself is not a matter of scientific knowledge. So I think you're on a wrong track with that remark.

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Cyracuz

I shall take refuge in ignorance. My ststement is based upon my present knowledge and I know nothing about Buddha. I suspect Buddha knows nothing about me.

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Quote:

I shall take refuge in ignorance.

You don't have to tell me that... Twisted Evil

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Quote:

Interesting, huh? "Hate sink"- I think it's an incredibly accurately descriptive term for what some humans will do to another, as you said, to "fuel one's own aggrandizement and immunity".

Yes, that approach works quite well for the feeble minded.

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Re: Why we all love war

coberst wrote:

Why we all love war.

It is human nature to constantly seek "fuel for one's own aggrandizement and immunity". Otto Rank says "The death fear of the ego is lessoned by the killing of the other; one buys one's self free from the penalty of dying, of being killed". Is there any surprise then to discover that human kind is constantly engaged in war?

The ego can consign others to death without a ?'second thought', when such will provide a sense of personal security. This is why war comes so naturally for sapiens. Considering the fact that we now have the WMDs to destroy all citizens in one single cataclysm, is there any doubt regarding the necessity that humans begin quickly a process of self-learning in order to comprehend our nature so as to possibly prevent this logical fate?

The price of our natural animal narcissism is that we will, when pressured, willingly sacrifice another in our place; with one very remarkable exception; the exception to this rule is, of course, the hero. Heroism is an amazing reversal of the rule of routine values. Heroism is another thing that makes war so wonderful and uplifting. War has become modern wo/man's ritual for the emergence of heroes. We launch our self into uncritical hero worship as a catharsis of own fears.

"The logic of Scapegoating, then, is based on animal narcissism and hidden fear. If luck, as Aristotle said, is when the arrow hits the fellow next to you, then Scapegoating is pushing the fellow into its path?-with special alacrity if he is a stranger to you.

The logic contained in killing others in order to protect our own life makes clear anything that may puzzle us regarding the frequency of war in human history. When I kill an enemy and thereby affirm the power of my life, then, certainly the staging of massive life-and-death struggles affirms our whole society. The outsider ponders known incidents when the mob delighted in watching the prolonged death of someone; we need not ponder if we comprehend sapiens' drive to survive. "They are weak and die; we are strong and live." "My God is stronger than your God".

The Nazis provide an example of this phenomenon. The dedicated themselves to the ?'final solution', to large scale sacrifices of human life after 1941 when it was becoming evident that they were losing. The Jews were singled out as the scapegoat for the economic and political woes of Germany in the mid twentieth century.

Many of the quotes are from "Escape from Evil"?-Ernest Becker

The only ones who love war have never been in combat.

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pswfps wrote:

Quote:
Interesting, huh? "Hate sink"- I think it's an incredibly accurately descriptive term for what some humans will do to another, as you said, to "fuel one's own aggrandizement and immunity".

Yes, that approach works quite well for the feeble minded.

Or for those with a feeble will. Do you think a feeble will is necessarily the result of a feeble mind? I think you're right, it definitely has to do with weakness somewhere-I'm just not sure exactly where that sort of weakness abides in a person- or why or when it develops.
Or if it is a developmental stage that most people go through-only it seems that the majority of humans get stuck in it.
But for those who do manage to develop through it and on into being able to stand as an individual without the need to pull others down in order to build themselves up- what do you think has made the difference.

A friend of mine was describing his father yesterday and he said that he was a wonderful human being- and then when I asked what made him wonderful in his eyes, he said, "He knew his own mind and heart and was absolutely incorruptible". I thought that was such a testament to his father- that his son saw him to be so-and so rare.
But why does it have to be so rare?

snookered said:

Quote:

The only ones who love war have never been in combat.

Do you think so? Sometimes it seems that people who have been in combat actually develop a taste for war.

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aidan wrote:

pswfps wrote:
Quote:
Interesting, huh? "Hate sink"- I think it's an incredibly accurately descriptive term for what some humans will do to another, as you said, to "fuel one's own aggrandizement and immunity".

Yes, that approach works quite well for the feeble minded.

Or for those with a feeble will. Do you think a feeble will is necessarily the result of a feeble mind? I think you're right, it definitely has to do with weakness somewhere-I'm just not sure exactly where that sort of weakness abides in a person- or why or when it develops.
Or if it is a developmental stage that most people go through-only it seems that the majority of humans get stuck in it.
But for those who do manage to develop through it and on into being able to stand as an individual without the need to pull others down in order to build themselves up- what do you think has made the difference.

A friend of mine was describing his father yesterday and he said that he was a wonderful human being- and then when I asked what made him wonderful in his eyes, he said, "He knew his own mind and heart and was absolutely incorruptible". I thought that was such a testament to his father- that his son saw him to be so-and so rare.
But why does it have to be so rare?

snookered said:

Quote:
The only ones who love war have never been in combat.

Do you think so? Sometimes it seems that people who have been in combat actually develop a taste for war.

How would you know, If it seems that way? You have no way of understanding anything about men and women in war. Do you have exact knowledge of a "War Monger" (which your are suggesting)? Not just something you read.
Your an insult to my dead buddies in Vietnam, To the men in Iraq who go back to their unit after being injured.
It's called HONOR. Not many people can declare honor anymore.

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Sorry coberst but most of this thesis is "psychobabble". You cannot account for "war" a sociological or even an evolutionary phenomenon merely in psychological terms like "love" or "fear for one's own life" even if such emotions exacerbate the course of a conflict. You could equally start from a thesis that "war" is a "natural phenomenon" which occurs to a limited extent in many species who exhibit tribalism without the complication of "cognition". The fact that humans attach all types of convoluted rationality (religious, political, economic etc) to their urges to slaughter each other is little different to advocating "Gods will" for being swept away by a tsunami.

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There are many types of "war" - both figurative and literal.
In my mind I wasn't confining Cobersts theories or concepts to armed conflict between people of different nations. That's what I like about Coberst's essays- you can take them and apply them to whatever they fit in your own experience.
(The fact that the guy who explained the hate sink to my sister was a soldier was coincidental- I think there are people who do that in every working environment).

Snookered - what I said doesn't constitute an insult to anyone-and I try to personally not be an insult to anyone. But some people try very hard to take anything someone says as an insult to someone or something-illustrating exactly what Coberst was saying in his opening post.
You don't know what I do or don't know about war- either figuratively or literally. Incidentally, my own father is a veteran, and a very observant person, so I have heard a lot of first hand accounts about how different people respond to situations in war differently- and not always as you'd think they would.
Some people abhor conflict and do everything they can to avoid it and promote peace- and that's between nations and within individuals in their own interpersonal relationships -and others enjoy conflict and actively promote it- again whether that's between nations or within their own personal relationships- because they somehow seem to thrive on it.
And that's a phenomenon that has nothing whatsoever to do with honor.

But what I'm saying is those who must have conflict, and create it, if it doesn't naturally occur, do not really thrive, because (as Coberst alluded to) their self-gratification or aggrandizement is ill-gained and based on a false sense of accomplishment.
And that's a phenomenon that has nothing whatsoever to do with honor.
And I agree with pswfps- it's based on weakness (or feebleness) rather than strength.

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War is just one of the games that sapiens play at for the purpose of self-esteem and meaning.

George Simmel was another great thinker who saw the "spirit" that was in human perception. In his essay on the matter of ?'secret' he "showed how man needed to hold things in awe, surround them with mystery". In his great essays we can see "in precise and detailed analysis how idealism blends with materialism, how inseparable the "idea" in a world of matter". He reveled that society itself is a game; people play not in, but at, society.

Max Weber the great sociologist showed us how power and prestige influences the division of the spoils of our economy; how war establishes our class structure; how economic considerations commodify subjects in our society; the prominent role of religion, myth, and the urge for eternal life affect our society; how we will sacrifice bread for belief and comfort for meaning; "how the whole panorama functions in a gigantic interplay of self-interest, survival, splendor and display, this-worldly waste and other worldly wonderand yet through it all how they satisfy man's basic urge to meaning, to ever-larger and more satisfying, evermore comprehensive meaning."

Weber showed us "the newest social game of rational man?-the game of numbers, calculations, efficiency: the uncompromising logic of modern bureaucracy." Our whole modern system was heading toward an adaptation par excellence that might be identified as our "bitter" future.

Weber's work was deficient in that he lacked a critical quality. Thorstein Veblen illuminated just how we use conspicuous consumption and waste for the sake of show. It required a critical mind to show the waste and destruction of the commercial-industrial bureaucratic style assembled in the name of capitalism. "How finally the most deadly mask of all could be pulled down over the commercial-industrial style of life: the mask of national survival, the mask of patriotism, the mask of unquestioned loyalty, of self-sacrifice?-in a word, the destruction of men to the uncritical support of efficient waste."

Civilization has become an uncritical style of life that sacrifices the free energies of the citizen to a self-absorbed and largely fictional pattern of social meaning.

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Only good men start wars ... who would fight, to the death, for an evil person?

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vikorr wrote:

I came to the conclusion many years ago, that behind every war, was a power struggle :wink:

You think?

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Quote:

Max Weber the great sociologist showed us how power and prestige influences the division of the spoils of our economy; how war establishes our class structure; how economic considerations commodify subjects in our society; the prominent role of religion, myth, and the urge for eternal life affect our society; how we will sacrifice bread for belief and comfort for meaning; "how the whole panorama functions in a gigantic interplay of self-interest, survival, splendor and display, this-worldly waste and other worldly wonderand yet through it all how they satisfy man's basic urge to meaning, to ever-larger and more satisfying, evermore comprehensive meaning."

Do you still think this is true though? -particularly the part about sacrificing bread for belief and comfort for meaning- and then the part that I've italicized in color.
I was reading a thread today in which some (I don't think I read the whole thread, so I can't even guess what percentage) but at least some posters admitted they felt their lives (or existence) had no meaning.

It seems to me that it's become fashionable to view those who profess that they believe in anything at all, even in the meaningfulness of their own existence, as naive or deluded.

If there's nothing to believe in and your life has no meaning, then I guess it's all just killing time- at which point comfort, materialism, and realism would easily replace idealism.

Quote:

Civilization has become an uncritical style of life that sacrifices the free energies of the citizen to a self-absorbed and largely fictional pattern of social meaning.

I think this is what has happened. Because people express the fact that they feel their existence is meaningless, maybe they just absorb and participate in what seems to be meaningful to others around them. In other words because they can't find meaning within themselves, they look to others to provide it for them.

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Why we all love war

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