Babel

I thought the reason for the title was obvious. Babel is one of the most intelligent and artfully made films of 2006. The film has two central themes - culture and communication. It also exposes the connections between these themes in the arenas of politics, religion and geography sensitively and intelligently. The tag-line, though intentionally obtuse, sums the film up well - "If you want to be understood... Listen" - The parable is designed to speak to people all over the world who seem to believe that the meaning and importance of political boundaries somehow supersedes the value of humanity. It has especially important messages for Americans, however. And its release was well timed to coincide with an election (2006) which may, in the long term, provide some hope for American foreign policy.

As is obvious, I don't agree with your assessment.

um...I'm not watching the movie anymore, so would you mind saying that so that a person can understand what you're getting at?

You say the meaning is obvious, well, it wasn't to me, and that what I was asking.

You sure can sling a lot of words around though, but didn't answer the question.

Maybe you should stick to movies with car chases and gunfights.

maybe you should try to communicate more clearly.

I've asked a question, if you're going to insult my intelligence, let someone else answer.


BTW, I VERY seldom watch movies, just not my thing. More of a reader.


Still looking for an answer...

anyone?

anyone?

I want to suppose you are kidding, Chai, and playing along the "I don't understand" game.

Babel is about not understanding others, about understanding only your own bunch.

No, I'm absolutley not kidding.

I did not see this at all, or, at least not to the extent ya'll have.

Now, I do admit I saw the disconnect between the Japanese girl and her father, and how she kept acting out sexually instead of dealing with her mothers death. But I wouldn't base the name of the movie on that.

The boys with the rifle, where was the communication problem there?

Amelia, the mexican woman, it's really unfortunate what happened with her being deported, but it wasn't for lack of communication.

The movie was fine, I had no problem with it. I suppose I was looking at it in the way that diverse peoples actions effect each other....a network....the butterfly effect, etc.

But truthfully, that's been done many times before.

Still not at all clear on where the miscommunication was.

You mean it was a lot of babel?

ahh...I'd been waiting for you to come along and educate me oh wise one.

You know, when the Japanese girl first got into the car with her father, my first reaction was "Wow, teenagers are the same the world over." You know, the way she didn't want to talk, in that teen angst thing.

oh, and in other situations, I saw that the communication was all too clear...
Like the look on the Iraqi's fathers face when his older son told him that the younger kid was peeping at his sister naked, and she liked it. That look of shock said it all.
Or when Amelia decided she had to take the 2 white kids to the wedding. I think it was communicated very clearly by her that even though she had cared for them, fed them, etc. she really wasn't happy about having to take two kids from another culture with her to her sons wedding. I feel if they had been 2 Mexican kids, that emotion wouldn't have been oozing out of her.
The border control cop who said he couldn't believe she left the kids in the desert? C'mon, they both knew that was just something he was saying to put her down. They both knew his words were belying (sp) their meaning. Anyone would have left the kids in order to travel quicker to get help.

Could you name some scenes where this lack of communication was? Maybe I'll see it then.

Well, Chai, you are living proof of the film's idea, which is the lack of understanding between cultures. A big part of the film was about Americans not understanding other cultures. Big dumb Brad Pitt thinks he can buy people with his dollars while he swans around their country in his air conditioned bus. Guess what, the Arab people weren't "Iraqis" at all! Morocco is in North Africa, thousands of miles away from Iraq. So the film got that bit right. You don't know one country full of brown people from another.

Secondly, you proved the film right when you talk about Mexicans and "white" people. That aspect of Americans always seems so very creepy to outsiders, the way you do that. it reminds of of South Africa's Apartheid system, where people were classified by race. Nobody else does it, you know.

Congratulations on proving the director right.

And most of the English-speaking world (and quite a bit beyond) think that the French are insufferable pricks. Go figure.

wow contrex, you're one nasty prick, aren't you? I don't know what I said to be so insulting to me, but I sure do wish you'd stop.
I would think you have a lot to learn about how to treat other human beings with respect. Are you related to plainoldme by any chance?

Brad Pitt...he wasn't throwing money at anyone. Do you mean at the end when he offered the man who was helping him throughout some money? He understood where he was, and the fact he was traveling in a forgein country doesn't mean he had to travel through the desert on a camel, does it?

Are you sure every person on that bus was an American? It seems to me there were people on the bus with accents besides American. Why was it ok for them to ride on an air conditioned bus, but not an American. Also, from what I seem to remember, it was not just American passengers that wanted to get out of Dodge. As far as them being from Iraq as opposed to somewhere else, sure, I'll admit it, I didn't know what country they were traveling through. I guess I missed that part when they were discussing their local. To be honest, I don't have the best hearing in the world, and my sight is more important, I saw desert, and that's pretty much it. Didn't think of Arabia. And yes, I do know where Morocco is, as well as Iraq.

As far as referring to Mexicans and white people.....

Sir, I live smack dab in the middle of Texas. Where I live used to be part of Mexico, and there are thousands of people here who have lived here generations longer than any anglo.

If you walked up to someone with the last name of Guerro, Saustita, Garcia or Perez and asked them what race there are, they would NOT say white. They would either say they were Hispanic or Mexican. They are proud of their heritage as I am of mine. Guess what, we even marry each other, all the time!!!! In this case, I think it's you that's experiencing a problem with culture, as you are obviously unaware that a Mexican would not be ashamed to say what their country of origin and ethnic background is.

I can see you are simply one of those people that can't stand it that everyone doesn't share your particular culture, and needs to constantly insult others to make yourself feel superior.

Now, getting back to the subject. I'm not going to argue with you any more.
The fact that I ask a question about something I didn't understand is an admirable quality. Who is being more genteel contrex, me, asking a question and seeking knowledge, or you, insisting on throwing insults to a person that is a stranger to you?

I know, I know, Americans are just sooo terrible, we should all just go off and kill ourselves and make the world a better place. I'll do so right after I eat a stick of lard and fart a couple of dozen times in the back of my 2 gallon per mile SUV.

Would that make you happy?

lightwizard, now that I've "babbled" on enough, what can you teach me?

oh jesus patiodog, you stole my thunder....I wrote the word "prick" while you were tossing off that one liner.

The prick is MINE!

Have your way with it, then.

This movie certainly has sparked a debate both defensive and offensive. I'd say it's done its' job well. However, let's draw back a little here before the TOS blows up like a bomb.

That's what the film is -in part- about!

Like confusing a stupid kid with a terrorist threat (and not letting the untrustable local ambulance pick the wounded American).

Like not understanding what a wedding means to a Mexican mother, blinding her to the level of not understanding that you cannot take somebody else's kids across the border.

Like not understanding how to be loved by "normal" boys, when you're deaf and dumb.

(And like not understanding that a question on "race" is alien to Mexican culture... so we answer "Mexican", knowing that Mexican is not a "race", but a nationality/culture).

I'll bow to your superior knowledge of Mexican culture F. as you do live in Mexico. However, I will say this....I have had lengthy conversations with w/ MexicanAmerican who DO believe their race is "Mexican", seriously.

With one person, when I was trying to get her to realize that Mexicans were of Hispanic origin, meaning Spain (let's leave out Indian influence for simplicity) she completely denied it. So perhaps it is a Mex/Amer thing?

I do know that I've been refered to, by Mexicans on, oh, probably about a thousand occassions as "that white girl" or "that white lady" This in itself is an interesting discussion.

Lightwizard, don't worry about me and TOS, I'm done with blow hards, they're just not worth the time. :wink:

OK F. you do have me realizing what the film was about, however, except for the deaf girl, I'd really disagree personally with the level of conflict in communicating.

for instance, if one was in a country where everyone was a native, and all of one culture, and a woman was shot on a bus from a distance by a couple of kids fooling around, people would still assume there was some sort of attack going on. No one would say, "Oh, I'll bet that woman was shot by a couple of boys messing around with their dads rifle" So, the fact the people involved were from differenct parts of the world wouldn't effect the people reaction. One of the first thoughts might be "There's a sniper out there"!

Yes, I really do understand the importance of a Mexican woman relating to her sons wedding. I realize it was a very hard to make the decision to take the white kids there. When you say "blinding her to the level of not understanding that you cannot take somebody else's kids across the border" are you suggesting that perhaps she would have made a better choice to not go to the wedding?

I don't think that would have been acceptable to a loving mother of ANY culture. However, looking at it pragmatically, what else could she do?
A. She couldn't get any friends or relatives to look after the kids.
B. She couldn't leave them alone.
C. She couldn't NOT go to the wedding.

What would you have done? I would have taken them, I can't see any other choice. As far as their father, he couldn't be of any help, as his wife at that time was at deaths door. Sorry to say, I don't think his mind was on finding someone to take care of his kids for Amelia. Like I said before, it was really unfortunate.
Perhaps the only thing culturally I would have done is to be more assertive than Amelia was when her nephew said he would drive them back to San Diego. Amelia was a smart woman, she knew he was not only in no shape to drive, but that he was bound to create trouble at the border. But she went, because, well, from what I've seen, in some parts of the Mexican culture the women do what the men say.
Me? Who knows for sure, but I think I would have just settled in for the night and worried about getting back in the morning.

Hey, this is getting interesting, but I've got to go die my hair. I'll be back in maybe a half an hour when I've got the gunk on my roots.

It's not as much about people communicating with each other as it's about six degrees of separation (yeah, I know, that's another movie...er, or play).
The movie doesn't become as pretentious and over-wrought to make its' point as last year's Oscar winner, especially about race.

I've never probed deeply into conversation with the part of my family or my friends who are Mexican American to know everything I should likely know about their feelings regarding their heritage. It's not necessary for me to like them as taking up the same space on this Earth as I do.

The movie is about that space between humans that can be a gaping abyss because of ingrained thought processes going clear back to childhood. It's a difficult film to watch and I liked the title, mainly because it had no pop hook to it and I do imagine there are many people who get into difficulties understanding it. That makes it worth seeing again.

Thanks lightwizard. Putting it in terms of the "space between" helps.

Maybe I will watch it again.

There are many films I had to watch again because the first time around I became perplexed with the meaning the writer and director (or even writer/director) was trying to put across. Sometimes, especially including film which can be mostly a visual experience (like "Woman in the Dunes" or "L'aventura"), art can just ask questions about what one feels about life and humankind. They (including the actors) don't always attempt to fully answer those questions and that is the best kind of thought provoking art, at least for me. It can get inside one's head and often one can come out a better person. "Crash" bashed me over the head with it, even while becoming very touching in part, but "Babel" wrested most of its impact from foreign cinema, especially Bergman and Kurosawa.