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THE BRITISH THREAD II

 
 
contrex
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Sep, 2014 11:02 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

contrex wrote:
Nearly everyone who is an "intellectual" like Nigel Farage, you mean?



By UKIP standards he is.

I see what you mean.

0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Fri 12 Sep, 2014 11:12 am
In the dog days of Brown's premiership a lot of BNP councillors got elected, and a lot resigned shortly afterwards because they didn't understand what was going on in council meetings. I don't think UKIP councillors are quite as thick as that, but they're not the sharpest knives in the drawer.

The one being interviewed on the politics show, Jane Collins, kept stumbling over her words, contradicting herself, and appeared to be advocating withdrawing from NATO. She said Putin's actions were wrong, but didn't think sanctions (or military action for that matter,) were the right way to deal with things. She could not come up with an alternative policy.

I think they're used to preaching to the converted, and don't have any answers when challenged.
contrex
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Sep, 2014 01:25 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

contrex wrote:
Nearly everyone who is an "intellectual" like Nigel Farage, you mean?



By UKIP standards he is.


They aren't very high.
0 Replies
 
contrex
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Sep, 2014 01:58 pm
I see Nigel Farage is doing his bit to help Scots decide to vote "yes" (He's holding an anti-independence rally in Glasgow tonight). The word "twunt" was surely invented for this man.
0 Replies
 
contrex
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Sep, 2014 02:24 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
In the dog days of Brown's premiership a lot of BNP councillors got elected, and a lot resigned shortly afterwards because they didn't understand what was going on in council meetings. I don't think UKIP councillors are quite as thick as that, but they're not the sharpest knives in the drawer.

I don't know if you are old enough to remember the famous thicko Derek Beackon, who was elected a BNP councillor in Tower Hamlets in 1993. he said a particular housing development was "full of Asians", and when he was told the figure was 28%, said "Well, that's more than half".
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Sep, 2014 09:29 am

Quote from my brother, who knows plenty of the tens of thousands of Scots in London, graduates who have moved there for work, people who followed the Norman Tebbit plan as Scots have traditionally done. They are all incensed that they have no vote:
"A Romanian tattie-howker* with six months residence can vote on the future of my country, and I am barred from doing the same"

*potato picker, itinerant agricultural worker

I myself wonder why it was decided that a bare majority of over 50% of votes cast will be enough to decide this. For something as important as this, would a two-thirds majority not be more appropriate before deciding to alter the status quo?
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Sat 13 Sep, 2014 09:53 am
@McTag,
I find it hard to believe that people who have left Scotland think they have any right to vote in this matter.

I understand that they feel this way - but if they thought about it, they'd realize it's ridiculous. They left.
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Sat 13 Sep, 2014 09:57 am
@McTag,
Welcome to the modern world of immigration and cultural evolution. Things change, often in ways that are discomforting for some. If you are suggesting that there are a lot of sappy rule makers out there who appear to believe they know better than we what is good for us all, then I agree with you. The coming election is indeed a serious matter, and I believe the consequences will be mostly bad if the UK is divided. It appears very remarkable to me that the matter has so swiftly become this close. Be careful what you wish for....

I'm hoping that as the imminent reality of the proposition sinks in, people will realize the choice will have real consequences and the tide will recede.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Sep, 2014 10:01 am
@McTag,
McTag wrote:
I myself wonder why it was decided that a bare majority of over 50% of votes cast will be enough to decide this. For something as important as this, would a two-thirds majority not be more appropriate before deciding to alter the status quo?
Referenda usually are about getting a majority. And since there are only two choices. 50+% sounds good enough.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Sep, 2014 12:02 pm
@ehBeth,

Quote:
I find it hard to believe that people who have left Scotland think they have any right to vote in this matter.

I understand that they feel this way - but if they thought about it, they'd realize it's ridiculous. They left.


Not ridiculous at all. These folks probably have three generations of family "at home". It's only 300 miles away. They are 100% British and 100% Scots.
There will be English oil workers in Aberdeen on twelve months contracts who will be entitled to vote.
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Sep, 2014 12:09 pm
@georgeob1,

Quote:
Be careful what you wish for....


Quite a lot of people in this thread have lost sight of the fact that I am a natural "NO" voter, were it possible for me to vote. (Granted, that was probably not directed at me.)
I think there is too much sentiment and nostalgia, nationalism and xenophobia, Braveheart and Brigadoon in the YES camp.
Wiser counsel is beginning to prevail. The Scots were once characterised as being canny. Maybe we haven't lost the knack.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Sep, 2014 12:10 pm
@McTag,
Well, think about it this way: English law prevails in England and applies to all who reside there, Scottish law may similarly apply in Scotland to all who reside there. The ties of culture and nationality to which you refer are certainly meaningful and real. However, they do not really govern the legal question at issue.

Emigrants often tend to have attitudes that are frozen at the time of their departure, I heard a lot of that from my relations in Ireland about the "typical" attitudes of the American descendants of Irish immigrants here.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Sep, 2014 12:13 pm
@McTag,
McTag wrote:

The Scots were once characterised as being canny. Maybe we haven't lost the knack.


I think that's still true and, like you, hope it will prevail.

I suspect, also like you, I have an inner sympathy for the Celtic nostalgia.
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Sep, 2014 12:21 pm
@georgeob1,

Quote:
I suspect, also like you, I have an inner sympathy for the Celtic nostalgia.


Definitely, and I will be heartily, heartily sorry for all the young idealists should their votes carry the day, and the predicted recession sets in.
They are voting for better chances in life, the jobs and increased prosperity they are being promised.
I'd be surprised if anything good ensued.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Sat 13 Sep, 2014 12:31 pm
@ehBeth,
If somebody moved 400 miles down the road from you, (distance from Edinburgh to London) would you think they'd cut all ties with Toronto?

Lands End to John 'O Groats is 881 miles by road.
http://robinharvie.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/jogle-map.jpg
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Sep, 2014 06:31 am
At the of an opinion in the Daily Mail - Whiny Scots want independence but not the responsibility which goes with it - is an online poll:

http://i57.tinypic.com/bf55rl.jpg

Obviously "No" means, it will be same as before which just got 20%. But it would be more interesting to see, how many think it will be better or worse.


McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Sep, 2014 06:49 am
@Walter Hinteler,

Military parades in London without pipes 'n' drums? Unthinkable.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Sun 14 Sep, 2014 07:07 am
@McTag,
McTag wrote:
Military parades in London without pipes 'n' drums? Unthinkable.
I'm sure, the USAFR Pipe and Drum Band will help out. Or the Palestinian Scouts Pipe and Drum Corps ... oops, not the latter since they are Catholics.
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Sep, 2014 07:15 am
@Walter Hinteler,

My good lady was in Glasgow a few years ago when the world pipe band championship competition was being held on Glasgow Green.
It seems to have been another successful Scottish export. Pakistanis, Gurkhas, New Zealanders, Canadians, Americans...
We've got lots of lovely photos.
0 Replies
 
Lordyaswas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Sep, 2014 12:36 pm
Giloigan in Today's Telegraph......

Scottish independence: 'Yes campaign every bit as dodgy as Iraq dossier'

One of the key themes of the Yes independence campaign – I saw it scrawled on a No poster in Edinburgh only last night – is that a “free Scotland” will no longer be tricked into illegal wars based on lies.
But as the BBC reporter who first exposed those lies, I believe that Scotland is being led over a cliff by a dossier every bit as dodgy as the one that took us into Iraq.
Like the whole of Britain in 2003, Scotland in 2014 is being asked to fix a problem that does not exist. Back then, it was an imaginary threat from Iraq. Now, it is an imaginary threat to the NHS, 45 minutes from destruction if you vote No.
Back then, it was the supposed “clash of civilisations” between Islam and the West. Now, it is a supposed “fundamental conflict of social values” between two nations, England and Scotland – whose social values, all surveys show, are extremely similar.
And just as in 2003, Scotland is also being asked to tackle another problem that is real and does exist – but in a way that will only make that problem worse, for itself, and for all of us. Back then, we were told that invading Iraq would protect us from international terrorism. In fact, of course, it gave international terrorism a boost beyond al-Qaeda’s wildest hopes and dreams.

Now, Scots are told that independence will protect them from global capitalism. They are told that a new international border at Gretna will form a magic shield against the City, the Tories, and the cuts.
In fact, after a Yes vote the City, the Tories, and the architects of the cuts would have more power over Scotland, not less.
Because what is offered by Alex Salmond and the Yes campaign is not independence. It is sharing a currency, whether formally or informally, with England.
Scotland’s central bank would be in London. All the key levers of Scotland’s economic policy – interest rates, borrowing and spending – would be controlled not in Edinburgh, but by a UK government that Scots no longer had any role in choosing; a government much more likely than before to be Tory, without Scottish votes.
To mention another Yes campaign porky, no one “always gets the government they vote for”. But Scots have got the government they voted for at three of the past four UK elections. Next year’s may well make it four out of five. After independence, over the things that really matter, Scots would never get the government they voted for again.
In the modern world, all nations are battered by powerful external forces, which you need power of your own to resist. A nation of five million is, by definition, less powerful than a nation of 60 million. Indeed, with banks, capital and investment rushing for the exit, Scotland would be more battered than most.
It would have to accept whatever terms the moneymen offered – and they would not be good terms.
There are no short cuts to social justice. If Scots want to tame international capitalism, it can only be done internationally. They have to make links, not break links, with other people in other countries, like England, Wales, and Northern Ireland, who agree with them.
The idea of the SNP as progressives ought to be laughable, even before you include the thugs and bullies on their fringes. They cut thousands of college places for working-class kids to subsidise free university tuition for the children of lawyers. One of their largest donors ran a campaign to keep the anti-gay Section 28. Their key business endorser is the man who promoted RBS’s Fred Goodwin!
Yet it’s not laughable, because – like the rest of the dodgy dossier – so many people seem to be buying it. How on earth has a famously rational, unemotional, cautious place like Scotland – birthplace of the Enlightenment – come so close to being swept into this land of the unknown by a last-minute wave of shallow populism, emotion and fairy-tale lies?
It’s partly brilliant tactics. The SNP ground operation, the best in Britain, was the first in the world to use the precision voter-targeting software that swept Obama to power in 2008, and has honed it since. Behind most “grassroots” street-stalls there’s a Yesser with a smartphone.
It’s partly, as everyone says, the same anti-Establishment anger that drives Ukip in England – even though Salmond, of course, is the head of the Scottish Establishment. And the fact he was able to pull off that trick is a tribute to the sheer uselessness of the SNP’s opponents.
Only the Nationalists keep their top Scottish talent north of the border. Labour’s still gravitates to Westminster, and Holyrood has to make do with the B-team and the C-team.
Scottish Labour is an unfraternal snake-pit, but the SNP is hugely disciplined. Its political success and intellectual dominance over the past seven years may explain why its lies over independence are so readily believed now.
The Iraq war was something Tony Blair survived, but never really recovered from. Scotland will survive, and in time it will recover. But independence achieved by a wafer-thin margin, on the basis of deceit, fiercely opposed by half the population, is not a recipe for a stable or happy new state.
As an Englishman without a vote, I today have the same feeling of powerlessness and dread as I had the week before the Iraq war. I knew it was wrong. I knew it would be disastrous. But there was nothing I could do to stop it.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11094601/Scottish-independence-Yes-campaign-every-bit-as-dodgy-as-Iraq-dossier.html
 

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