Reply
Sat 3 Mar, 2007 02:37 pm
After some forum exchange about the subject of flattering teenage students and discussing sexual scandals and relationships between students and teachers, I decided to trigger or at least try to trigger a debate on the subject.
THis is what I found when I googled "Dont stand so close to me", the song by the Police to find some comments on the problem of a young teacher and teenage student sexual encounter:
"Chemistry isn't confined to the science labs at school. The sexual variety is in the air in every classroom and down every corridor. How could it be otherwise, given the proximity, day in day out, of hundreds of teenagers, each one a hormone volcano ready to erupt, and their teachers, many still in their early twenties?"
This is a part of an article I found on the web and later in the article different cases of student teacher relashinship and court consequences and jail are mentioned. THe article mentions female teachers kissing 14 ye ar old boys and going to jail for it.
WHen I said in another post of mine that I wrote a note to a 17? year old student and said she was sexy, I got loud and decisive DON'Ts from some people here, and I am really grateful for the warning. There is something wrong with saying to a teenage student she is sexy, but what is wrong with it is a huge, huge topic to me. I've been thinking about it ever since I started asking at this forum.
Aidan put me into a kind of "pervert or freak" category and suggested that if I had that kind of flattery contact with her daughter, she would have her removed from my class. I also noticed in another article on the web that lots of men are discouraged to teach as there are these legal hassle and danger of being accused of abuse. I think, before anyone is put into a pervert or sick category of man, they should check what is going on in the air at that particular school. The fact is that a young attractive male teacher who shows up in a high school packed with teenage girls and as long as his reputation as teacher is fine he automatically becomes a star. I have taught at three high school and I could feel this response to my person in almost all classes. It is the kind of rock star effect. Even if a guy is ugly and has almost no hair left, once he grabs his electric guitar and makes the stadium scream, no matter what he looks like, he is an idol for all the women and girls present. The same thing happens to a male teacher, the only problem is that he must be the best looking and most attractive at that school. Then it is very easy to maintain that star position.
So a 20 something high school teacher who is a dream and sex target of teenage students has to be aware of two things - this hormone, nature chemistry frenzy is absolutely natural and only a blind person would deny its existence. On the other hand, he has to be aware of consequences of any kind of sexual encounter and what's more, consequences of anything that hints there MIGHT be something sexual going on.
When I come to a classroom these days and before the boys come, sometimes the girls are sitting leasurely or half sitting, half lying on the sofa - we have a sofa in a video classroom - and the atmosphere and what I feel is going on in the air - is clearly somehow sexual. So what do I do? I just stand there in front of them leisurely, chat a little before we start. But I cannot deny the paramount beauty in front of me. I admit it is one of the reasons I love my job. It is a kind of compensation for the low pay and the hassles, for example legal hassles. I think it is impossible to avoid for me to notice the naked parts of their bodies. Aidan claims I "oggle" teenage students. Well, I guess oggling is something you do in your freetime. Women oggle men, men oggle women, hey, that's natural. But I really don't have time to stare at girls when I teach. I have a glance, here and there, but it never takes time off my work. When I monitor their work, when I walk around the classroom, I just can't avoid all kinds of angles of views. They are for me all beatiful presents. I guess we can take all beauty we encounter be it flowers, trees, mountains, clouds, young girls or boys, that's all gifts and we naturally enjoy them, unless we are somehow blocked.
So what is really disturbing and that's where the ethics come to account, is when something causes disorder. I think there is some kind of balance in the universe and problems occur when we go beyond the balance. For example if a teacher is too stiff and cold and never smiles, there is some disorder. When a teacher flirts with female students and somebody may believe there is some sexual interest, then there is some disorder. That 's what i realized thanks to some people's posts and that's why I turned down or ignored new signals from my teenage students ever since. Because even if I am sure I would never sexually touch one of my students, the gossip is not worth the problems.
I guess we should not be slaves to laws or discrimination or prejudice. We should, each one of us, should make sure what we do is in total accord with our consciense. Then we can live without fear, even if we have made mistakes in the past.
I would encourage all young or old male teachers to come and teach young girls and enjoy the beauty. Don't let stupid, discriminating, pretentious, woudbemoral people deceive you. Enjoy all the beauty freely. Just don't be sleazy and don't break rules unless you want to lose your job or end up in jail. Whatever you do, be it smile or flattery, do it with awareness of the whole situation. Don't lose control of the situation and make sure all sides are benefited, don't be selfish.
EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww....
Stach, you know I'm sympathetic. You're digging yourself into a really deep hole here, though.
Point #1 -- these are GIRLS. Not women. Not at the age of consent. Not adults. GIRLS. Children.
sozobe wrote:EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww....
Stach, you know I'm sympathetic. You're digging yourself into a really deep hole here, though.
Point #1 -- these are GIRLS. Not women. Not at the age of consent. Not adults. GIRLS. Children.
you are so quick! I wanted to edit the post to correct spelling "oggle" it should be OGLE.
Well, I am maybe digging myself into a deep hole. On the internet, which is not something real. BUt I am trying to defend the human right to notice beauty, even 5 year old girls are beautiful, geez! It seems like you don't believe there is any common sense left in the Western society.
I am not encouraging teachers to flirt or touch their under 18 students. I am thinking about the situation as realistically as possible. It is just pure reality that there is something sexual - even if just in mind - going on between teenagers and adults. Once a girl reaches 10 or 12 years she broadcasts and receives sexual signals and the nature doesn't block those that are legally problematic. It is just a pure fact. So I think male teachers have to be aware of this and act accordingly. FOr example if I am a fantasy plaything for a 12 year old student, I have to be really sensitive and make sure there is no legal problem. But the games they play are not illegal and I don't belive they could harm me or them mentally. What is the reason there are any laws on this? Because there ARE perverts who do something crazy and really seriously hurt a child. That's why we have laws. But you can notice the older a girl, the less sensitive the whole thing is. A girl and you have been one so you know, doesn't become sexually aware all of a sudden, nor becomes totally mature all of a sudden. Nor does a woman become romance-proof. Anyone can be hurt in a relationship, even 80 year old people. So we should differentiate between the risks of relationships and risks of premature experience. If a 12 year old girl sleeps with an adult, the consequences will be bigger than if she does it at 18. The general agreement is that a teacher doesn't sleep with any students. But only when a teacher sleeps with someone under 15 he or she is considered really pervert. THat's the general feeling. But the line between a sexually mature girl with her body all grown up and a sexually innocent, sexually unaware, not interested girl , is not clear. It could be somewhere between 10 and 12, it is very individual.
Well, I just started another aspect of the whole thing, but you see, the whole thing has lots and lots of aspects. Just let's not forget that a child becomes an adult over a course of several years.
My point is something like this.
If a 17 year old students sleeps with a say, 30 year old teacher, it will probably won't have any other effect on her than sleeping with a 17 year old boy. But it is illegal to do it for him. Now once she turns 18 it is absolutely okay with the society if this same girl goes to a sex shop and buys a DVD with the most perverted scenes and watches them at home with her 60 year old boyfriend and has sex with him watching. That is really sick about our society. The amount of pretentiousness. Ther is something really crazy about the world we are living in and so I support realism as much as possible so people see what is really serious and what is not.
Laws just can't control human thinking. And what we think and the motives of our actions are really important. Look at the presidents and politicians and priests representing our culture and values. Sick. So we have to respond and be responsible to ourselves and stop lying to ourselves and others.
Stach, you're creeping me out.
sozobe wrote:I give up.
Be careful.
you sound like you are living in a country run by nazis and gestapo
it is interesting that the country whose people helped me to stop looking down on women and understand and respect fully the wide spectrum of the miracle called a woman, is full of people who are now afraid of politically correct imaginary police floating in the air
I for one am not afraid of imaginary police. I am afraid for these young, vulnerable women. Once, when I was in high school, a gym teacher said I was sexy when the wind blew my hair off my face. He said it, as a loud aside to another gym teacher, so that I could hear him. I was included in the dialogue. So was the friend I was walking with. I was not offended. But, had that same gym teacher written me a note, I would have freaked.
Stach, you seem to be waivering over the line of what is decent and what isn't. By decent, I mean behaving in a way that does not put the student at risk for feeling unsafe or uncomfortable in school. Think of this scenario - the girl you flatter, in public or private, does probably feel good about it. But, what if her best friend has a crush on you? That complicates things for her. And what if you then flatter another student? It complicates things for her further yet. What if her hormonally driven imagination has her thinking you two will be boyfriend and girlfriend and then you don't? What if she turns down boys her own age because she feels loyal to you? These things may not be happening, but what if they are? What if they do?
You're right about the sexual stands that tug at all of us. Married people feel them with those who are not their spouses. Adolescents feel them with just about everyone. They are fine, healthy, part of life. But, we don't act on all of them. Most stay fantasy. Or else life would be very confusing.
littlek, I agree with you - I am just a very awkward writer when it comes to making points and arguments
any kind of sexual hints spoken will complicate things
i was trying to emphasis the huge difference between really seriously affecting someone's life - say an adult teacher has sex with a 12 year old girl - and some silly stupid games people, both teachers and students play at school making things complicated and cruising for bruising
i was just really surprised that American elementary male teachers are not allowed to hug a crying little 6 year old girl - that is kind of crazy
or that a female teacher was sent to prison for kissing a 14 year old boy, at least they should specify the kind of kiss - was it french kiss?
there is a difference between silly behavior and socially really disturbing behavior and it seems there is no difference in the US when judging these things - but in my posts i forgot to suppose there must be a least huge difference in the number of years you spend in prison for sleeping with under 15 year old student and kissing a 17 year old student
there is a choir master in our country, a very successful choir that tours the world regularly , a girl's choir and the choir master for years found occassions to touch the girls naked - took them to sauna for example and even slept with two or three of them when they were 12 or so and now they are adult women and it took them years to confess - they don't seem to be really affected in their lives by that experience and according to the stories they tell they were happy they could have sex with this freak - my point - these women were then also responsible - they are 12 year old girls with very little moral principles
i don't think children don't have any kind of moral responsibility - if a 10 year old boy shoots dead another boy then he is also responsible for his act - and when a 12 year old girl sleeps with an adult man, she is also responsible - because such a girl is not an idiot
i don't believe you can manipulate children into commiting something seriously sick unless they are already somehow seriously sick - which is no excuse for the perverted guy - i just say that such girls should be punished as well - or somehow psychologically examined - i dont believe they are victims only as much as a 12 year old child that steals in a shop is not only a victim but also a criminal
you could say that those girls raised in good families would never sleep with an adult at such a low age - yes, but what i am saying is that even when a child comes from a bad family or the parents are criminals, the kid has to find enough determination to live their lives with full responsibility
and cannot expect to be considered victims of everything that happens to them until they are 18 - because as we know well, they will continue in the same moral patterns in most cases - the good, socially healthy girls continue that kind of life and girls who are promiscuous, lie and steal at the age of 14 will probably not change anything when they turn 18
so if the society makes a clear difference between responsibility of a teacher who goes to prison and a student who is considered a mere victim - then the society encourages the children to act totally irresponsibly
and when they grow up they will continue to find excuses for whatever stupid they do and now you end up with obese adults who are suing McDonalds as they are "victims" of these restaurants - what kind of people will Americans become if they refuse responsibility for what they do?
We are all responsible. I am responsible for writing a note to a student and messing with her mind and students are responsible for not doing homework, picking up teachers, bringing guns to school and eating junk food.
stach wrote:Now once she turns 18 it is absolutely okay with the society if this same girl goes to a sex shop and buys a DVD with the most perverted scenes and watches them at home with her 60 year old boyfriend and has sex with him watching. That is really sick about our society.
At some point, society has had to make a decision about age of consent etc etc etc. The decision in most western countries is 18. Is it sick that a 17 year old can't drink but an 18 year old can (apperently in the US it's 21?)? Is it sick that a 17 year old can't vote but an 18 year old can? The line had to be drawn somewhere. Maybe you'd like 13-year-olds to be sexually available. They aren't. Deal with it.
I did not call you a pervert or a freak. I said that I thought what you did and said was inappropriate- and I believe it was.
As adults, it is our responsibility to think of the repercussions to children and act to protect them first-most adults are capable of thinking of the repercussions to themselves and taking care of their own protection-children aren't. That's why I would remove my own children, and any other child if it was within my control, from any situation which I thought might progress to the point that one of them would be harmed-even emotionally, if not actually physically or sexually.
There's a big difference between a forty year old man looking at teen-agers and a twenty-something year old man looking at teen-agers. Which are you? I thought you said you were forty. Maybe I was mistaken.
I totally agree with you that there is a lot of temptation and overt sexual tension between young male teachers and female students. I think that's always been the case. And it seems more and more often that there is that same tension between young female teachers and teen-age male students, although I think this has been less common in the past because females generally mature emotionally earlier than males and they're usually drawn to older males, who can interact with them on their own level. These days though-it seems like males and females alike are taking longer to mature emotionally, and I think that's due to less life responsibility -women used to be married and mothers by the age of 22 or 23, that's no longer the case.
So maybe they're more interested now in prolonging the excitement of their youth, and these boys represent what they miss about highschool, as well as giving them the opportunity to exert the upper hand, or the ability to control the relationship.
Which highlights the crux of the problem with even the thought of you and one of these girls having a relationship. As the teacher of these girls, you are in a position of authority and control that would make any emotional or sexual attachment unequal and uneven. That's not even factoring in your (supposed) greater maturity and level of life-experience and status, etc.
I stand by my advice. If you feel yourself tempted by these teen-aged girls, you should think about removing yourself from that situation. For your own sake as well as for theirs. Even if something is only misconstrued-you may have acted totally within bounds or reason-now that you have a history-you will be looked at differently. You might also want to ask yourself why you're interested in teen-agers. Is it only that you find them more physically beautiful and alluring than women your own age, or is it because you find yourself incapable of communicating and responding to women who may have the ability to interact with you on an equal footing emotionally and intellectually?
*By the way, one of my best friends married a student. He is 55 and she is 40. He was her history teacher when she was in highschool. He was thirty and she was fifteen. He admired her intelligence, but that was as far as he took anything until she came back to teach (history) at the school he was still teaching at when she was thirty. They got married (his first marriage at 45) and now have three beautiful children.
bookmarking....
this disturbs me very much.
I'm reading along. I'm not comfortable re stach's boundary management either. Will work my way into a paragraph or two at some point, still thinking.
If anyone here didn't see it, this was my first go-round on this subject with stach:
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=91970
I thought I'd made some progress but evidently not.
point one - i agree that laws have to state at what age is soemthing legal and illegal - of course, we have to have these limits - but in the real life, the exact line between a mature and immature person doesn't exist - I also drank my first beer when I was 16 although it was illegal in the state I was living.
point two - i think it is for me as exciting to be surrounded by beautiful teenagers as it is to see or meet any kind of beautiful woman, be it on the street, shopping, cafes, anywhere - so some people think i am a special case, being obsessed with teenagers - no, i am not even obsessed with women in general more than an average man at my age - in fact i consider sex and sexual life much less imprtant than it is shown in media and that is considered normal by the modern society - in fact i pesonally believe that people worry too much about sexual problems just look at all magazines for women and men, it is full of crap writing about sex, but on the ohter hand I am not saying i am not at all sexually living man, i have a girlfriend and my sex life is okay so even if you misinterpret what i write or imagine things i do or don't do at work, i have no history of abuse or hurting emotionally or physically anyone for the two years i have been teaching at that school and most students - and they are mostly girls - respect me and act normally to me - i have only had some minor games sozobe explained to me, games i didnt quite understand - with one student so far and she seems absolutely ok, maybe a little disappointed that nothing continues
point three - i disagree with this silly overprotection of youngsters as if they had no brain or sense of responsibility - how do you explain that some 14 year old girls are promiscuous and enjoy meaningless sex and others keep away from such a low life? they must take responsibility
point four - i see it was much easier to become a star when i was 25 and it would have been extremely easy to make bad use of that position - now when i am 40 i consider the chances very similar to those of these teenage girls' peers - so i don't think it is easier for me to seduce a 17 year old girl than it is for a good looking 17 year old boy, on the contrary, i think it is more difficult for me, so i don't know what kind of advantage i would have and even if i started a relationship with a 17 year old student the odds are about 50 50 that either of us could get out of it for whatever reason - so i really don't see any kind of power or advantage in seducing and keeping a girlfriend just because i am her teacher - but it is okay with me that such a relationship is not allowed, no problem - it is just a little bit ridiculous when teachers go out with students, something funny about it, i just shook my head when it occured when i was at high school - we would laugh at that teacher and that was it, to us, he was harmless, and what's more he ridiculed himself because most girls turned him down immeditaly, only the stupid ones were interested
I agree with Sozobe (and the others).
I am a former teacher and I find what Stach is saying to be quite disturbing.
A teacher is in the as a professional for one reason-- to provide an education. If a teacher is having sexual feelings toward his students, it will interfere with his ability to be a professional. A good teacher will deal with any inappropriate feelings in a professional way (without involving any students) and will focus on providing an education.
If a teacher expresses these feelings in any way, it is completely inappropriate. It will certainly interfere with the education the teacher is there to provide. It can do much worse, hurting a teenager and making a student deal with something inappropriate that they shouldn't have to deal with.
Teenagers are in a stage of life where they are experimenting and flirting.
So what. As a professional you are supposed to be above that. Teenagers will be teenagers, teachers should be responsible adults regardless of their age.
A good teacher keeps a professional distance. Teachers aren't suppose to act like teenagers. The idea that you are there to "appreciate the beauty" of teenagers is wrong on many levels.
If you can't deal with inappropriate feelings in a professional way, very simply you should find another career.
ebrown_p wrote:. The idea that you are there to "appreciate the beauty" of teenagers is wrong on many levels.
If you can't deal with inappropriate feelings in a professional way, very simply you should find another career.
If i wrote that a teacher is there to appreaciate the beauty, i didn't express myself well. I believe some kind of beauty be it physical or beauty of mind, is simply present and if it doesn't interfere with teaching, it is okay to enjoy it.
I don't know if i have inappropriate feelings toward my students, i guess feelings is something everyone has to deal with and i can deal with them quite well. We have to deal with all kinds of good or bad feelings the moment we wake up in the morning. I guess it is part of human life to learn to deal with feelings, desire, anger, stupidity of myself and others. So the reason I started this post was to find out what we adult teachers have experienced in the field of sexuality and morals at schools. A lot of hypocricy won't get us anywhere.
I guess there is something disturbing in my posts that is disturbing about the movie Borat. The guys who think the movie Borat is immoral will never understand what I am trying to say. The movie shows what false principles and false ethics does in the society. It leads to killing people based on different color of skin or different religion. Feel free to lie to yourself, whoever, but don't lie to me, i won't buy it. I want the truth, not any kind of bullshit.
I will for the time being give stach the benefit of the doubt - I assume he never had any Education classes. I assume for the moment that his idea of the beauty of the young is not anything he himself is thinking he will act out about - reserving judgement.
The power imbalance with teacher and child is appropriate; the teacher is there to teach. Especially in high school, I'm amazed a teacher is at parties with the students, is playing scrabble with the student, and also the comment from the other thread, that the teacher is treating the students' opinions as important as his. Perhaps when you are at the doctoral level, on occasion. In the meantime, you are the teacher. Their opinions are not without importance, but you are there to teach them the processes of reasoned analysis, sometimes involving emotional perception as well as looking at that perception from afar, and, yes, the literate expression of it. Well, that's my opinion.
You mentioned in the other thread about needing to be friendly and close or quit your job?
Well, that is not the smart approach to handling a classroom.
I suggest you do some reading on all this; there are probably chunky tomes on the subject.
Also, the words farmerman and others are trying to discuss with you are not snippets for intellectual gratification - they don't mean them that way.
The boundaries you describe are sloppy.
A teacher is an important role. Sexual feelings are completely inappropriate for someone in this role.
I agree we are all human beings, but these are still inappropriate feelings. Having them is understandable if they are dealt with professionally. "Enjoying" sexual feelings for your students is completely unacceptable.
Let's distinguish whether what you are describing are inappropriate sexual feelings, or if it correct for you to try to rationalize them away as 'enjoying beauty'.
First question, do you have these feelings for all of your students, or just for the girls? If you are are (appropriately) appreciating them for who they are (i.e. appreciating their minds), their gender won't matter.
Second question... would you enjoy the same feeling for your sister. After all, if you have a younger sister... presumably you would also think she was beautiful (both physically and mentally).
Society gives teachers a very specific and very important role. The fact that these girls may be attractive is irrelevant, any sexual relationship, including flirting, is inappropriate. This is the same as it would be inappropriate toward your sister.
Again, the fact that you are human and have these feelings toward girls who are becoming adults is understandable-- if you deal with them professionally. This means admitting them... and then letting them go while making sure you do absolutely nothing that is even close to flirting.
The fact that you not only refusing to view these sexual feelings toward your students as inappropriate, but that you are acting inappropriately is very disturbing.
Stumble It!
Tweet This
Bookmark on Delicious
Share on Facebook
Share on MySpace