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Don't stand so close to me

 
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Mar, 2007 08:24 pm
Nods to ebrown.


Plus - the semi attack that we are all puritans, even.. gasp, borat haters..
is off the mark.
0 Replies
 
stach
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Mar, 2007 02:17 am
it is all quite interesting, this is an academic discussion, right? i am not standing in front of a court jury

but i think most people who reply to my posts imagine things never seeing me actually teach and talk to my students

did i say i flirt with my students? did i say i tried to pick up a student?

i will write more later
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stach
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Mar, 2007 03:36 am
Last night I was grumpy and negative for no reason. I think this is a valuable discussion and I am grateful for all the guys' input here, no matter if I agree or disagree.

I'd like to state some points so it is clear I am not such a crazy guy as my writing might suggest.

I absolutely agree with the law that sends an adult man having sex with a girl under 15 to prison. Let's put aside the question of the man is sick or not or what to do about him. Just imprison him and then next should be left to experts.

I also agree that a teacher, be it male or female should not have sex with a student. I agree that is is illegal because if it wasn't the school might turn into crazy pick up bars. I agree teachers should teach and students should learn and put sexual teacher - student affairs aside. The only thing I am not sure about is the actual punishment of such a teacher. I guess then the lawyers should take into account a lot of aspects.

The thing we probably don't agree on that you seem to look at all beings between 0 and 18 as irresponsible children and potential victims of psychopatic teachers and adults in general. I think the older the child is the more responsible they should be for what they do. I really think it is not okay that a 12 year old girl sleeps with an adult voluntarily. I think such a girl should scream and scratch and yell to get help in the moment an adult tries to seduce her. I already said that the guy should be rocketed to prison, no doubt about it, but the girl who has done it should be really examined critically and her developing moral principles should be questioned seriously.

Another thing we don't agree on is that you seem to look at all misbehaving teenage girls as innocent victims. I guess there is a huge difference between a 16 year old virgin from a catholic family and a 16 year old promiscuous girl who already has criminal history. I agree both have to be protected by the law equally. But the difference in potential harm from a sexually interested teacher will be huge. It is no excuse, just I am saying some girls will end up really harmed and some will embarrass the teacher.

And the elementary school issue. I really dont' agree that it is illegal if an adult teacher hugs a six year old crying girl to soothe her. It is crazy if that is illegal.

I also agree with you that flirting is inappropriate between teachers and students. But I would leave that to everyones' conscience as this is something so subtle and hard to define. I looked up the world in a dictionary. It says: "behave in a romantic or suggestive way but without serious intentions". Man, if this is something possible to detect by the people involved or people onlooking, I really really don't know. It is so subtle. At least it is not illegal. I guess each teacher should be able to feel what is already behind the sensible limit and what is okay.

Friendship with students. I really was naive when I started to teach at this school. I hoped I could get along with all students and establish mutual respect and trusting. I was wrong. Because the students come from all kinds of morally affected - let me put it this way, already before you meet them some of them have high moral or ethical profile and some of them low. There are all kinds of levels. SO naturally, as I consider myself an idealist - I mean people should try to question and examine what is moral and what is not and be honest and sincere, so naturally if a student doesn't match my moral criteria, there will be friction. She will not like me and I will not approve of their standards of ethics. So now I would say maybe 3 of them could be my friends, maybe two guys and one girl. Those are exceptions. I guess this kind of serious friendship is possible. But I think it is only a beginning and we will be real friends in the future after they leave school. But already now I can feel I can trust them and I feel they trust me. If I was in trouble or somebody tried to harm me, they would support me.

Let's be positive and respectful toward each other. We can all learn something from this I hope.
0 Replies
 
stach
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Mar, 2007 03:46 am
And don't forget there are cultural differences between my country and your countries.

If a class gives a party at the end of the term, they invite their favorite teachers, usually about three, the teachers come and dance and chat. That's it. I think this is generally well accepted in our country and teachers coming to such a party dont' have to lose respect of students unless they drink too much, talk too much and similar stuff. At least their real personality can be revealed to the students at the party.

And a note, yes, I have a master's degree in education and have been teaching for about 20 years at all kinds of schools.
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aidan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Mar, 2007 04:26 am
Quote:
Another thing we don't agree on is that you seem to look at all misbehaving teenage girls as innocent victims. I guess there is a huge difference between a 16 year old virgin from a catholic family and a 16 year old promiscuous girl who already has criminal history. I agree both have to be protected by the law equally. But the difference in potential harm from a sexually interested teacher will be huge. It is no excuse, just I am saying some girls will end up really harmed and some will embarrass the teacher.


There's probably more potential to cause more harm to the girl who is promiscuous and/or already has a criminal history. There's a reason she's promiscuous. It may be that she sees her sexuality as the only viable tool she has with which to relate to men or to be assured of her value. If you indulge that misconception, by being just one more man who interacts with her purely on that level, you will be helping her cement her perception of herself as just another bimbo without a brain, without a soul, with nothing but body to attach any importance to or use in any productive way.
You could be someone who says to this type of girl, "Look, you'll be much happier in the long run in life if you try to develop whatever gifts of intellect, of creativity, of kindness-whatever-you have instead of just focusing on your looks or sexuality." You could tell her, in a kind way, what she's offering and making of herself is not attractive or enticing and that the right kind of guy will be more interested in what's inside than what's outside. You could make a real difference in these girls lives, because they'd probably listen to you, whereas their mom telling them the same thing would go in one ear and out the other.
But you know, if you're worried about someone misconstruing or embarrassing you, I'd have another adult present for any conversation concerning any of this. That's just self-protection. It's sad that it's necessary to even think in those terms, but better safe than sorry.

As far as friendship goes, I don't see why you can't be friends with students, as long as you don't have sexual thoughts or feelings toward your friends- male or female-which I don't. I have gone to parties where students are present to which I've been invited. But our friendship from the get-go is based on the premise of mutual respect and admiration and a shared sense of humor or some interest-not on appreciation of looks or physical assets.

I still hug little kids at school when they need it, and I would feel comfortable hugging a teen-aged girl if she was crying and needed a hug, which does happen on occasion. But I always ask,"Do you need a hug?" or "I can see you are really upset, and I would like to help you. I feel like you might need a hug," and then let them either say "Yes, I would like a hug-or no, don't touch me."
Because it is hard to watch someone really emotionally upset and crying and not offer physical comfort.
I never had any issues with elementary teachers comforting or hugging my kids when they needed it-in fact I was happy there was someone to do that for them, if I wasn't there. And in terms of my daughter, I'd be fine if a teacher (male or female) that we were both familiar with helped to comfort her if she was upset.
But sad to say, I think most people would automatically look at men as being more suspect in that role, so if I were a man, I'd be more hesitant, and I'd propably refrain, unless again, there was another adult present to verify events if they were ever called into question.
0 Replies
 
stach
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Mar, 2007 06:11 am
I really appreciate any ideas or experience of you guys that are based on honesty.

Although I look like such a bad guy who has shaky moral principles, I think I am really caring a lot about what is going on in the world and try to live my life morally. THe weak spot is where I am not sure what is really moral and imoral, cause different cultures have different values.
So when you grow up in a communist country, the values make a pretty awful goulash that often doesn't make much sense. So after our country became free, everyone looked to anywhere possible to find some sensible values. But you know the tree of values and behavior standards is huge and has all kinds of directions. When I started to teach at high school in the nineties and found out that one of my colleage slept with a student and the whole class knew about it and nobody complained about it, it occured to me, that this is something officially forbidden, but generally accepted. But that school had this kind of "lost generation" atmosphere where both teachers and students were only gradually waking up to the new reality of free, democratic country. So now you have loads of Christians, Buddhists, New Age freaks, protestants, catholics and atheists and it is up to veryone to find out what is right and what is wrong. Of course, we have laws very similar to the US laws, a little bit less strict in most areas I guess, but the laws are made by politicians hence imperfect people. I question, always question what kind of stardards is the society forcing on me and they must harmonize with my conscience.

By the way, my great- grandparents were the old school Catholics (they lived as adults in the first half of the 20th century when our country was a still a democracy before the Nazi period. They didn't have sex before marriage, they led a very simple, wise life and stuck to the catholic principles. Now that I am older and more stable I really appreciate that kind of life. I have a couple of Catholic female students and they are the best when it comes to behavior. They just do what they are supposed to do and don't cause problems. I really appreciate that. The mistake I made is that I let the disorderly individuals somehow inspire my own values in the past. The older I am, the more peaceful and orderly life I really want to lead. But forgive me, I really want to discuss controversial issues, not for the sake of it, but to understand my job better.
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