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Thu 1 Mar, 2007 10:52 pm
Hey guys, I've just been writing something that I think I'd like to share with you guys. Anyway, here ya go!
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Christian faith is based on the belief that the Bible is truly the word of God; inspired by the son of God, Jesus Christ. If the Bible cannot be shown to be inspired, then the Christian faith could be said to be false and nothing more than a farce. If this is true, then Christianity could be said to be the same as any other religion devised and practiced by man.
The Jesus Story
We are taught in our culture that Jesus is our savior, and our only savior. Other cultures, though, have different "holy leaders." If the story of Jesus had gained popularity in China instead of Western nations, then we would be hearing and believing in a different holy-man, instead of Jesus. So it seems that where we are born has a lot to do with our beliefs. If a Christian from America was born in India instead, would he still be a Christian? Most likely not. He would most likely be a Hindu. So if where we are born basically determines our belief-system, then how do we know which is right? Are we going to simply put no thought into our entire, eternal being in the hopes that our ancestors were right, and that the other 75% of the world were wrong? I wish not, but it seems that is so in many cases.
So upon comparing all of these people, one will find that the similarities of all of these are so striking that it cannot be simply coincidence. How do we know which is right; who is the true holy man, the true savior to all of humanity? How do we know if there is even a savior to all of humanity? Let's look at all of these and see which one seems most likely.
Thulis of Egypt, 1700 BC
This man claimed to be the son of God many years before Jesus did. Ironically, his life is almost ( if not entirely ) the exact same as the life of Jesus. His mother was named Mary ( Or at least an Egyption derivative of Mary. ). He was in the temple teaching and scolding his elders by age 12. He became known as a healer and teacher. The ruler of Egypt tried to put him to death. He started ministry at age 30, and ended ministry at age 33 by getting crucified. Sounds oddly familiar, right? Of course it could all be coincidence. But could it be coincidence fifteen more times? It could, but the chances of that are very slim.
Let's look at fifteen other people who all claimed to be the Son of God before Jesus, had a mother named Mary ( Or as I've said, a derivative of it. ), were in the temple teaching and scolding elders by age 12, became known as a healer and teacher, who's rulers tried to put them to death, who started ministry at age thirty, and who ended ministry at age thirty-three by getting crucified.
1. Crite of Caldia, 1200 BC
2. Chrishna of India, 1200 BC
3. Atys, 1170 BC
4. Thammuz of Seria, 1160 BC
5. Hesus, 834 BC
6. Indra of Tibet, 725 BC
7. Bali, 725 BC
8. Alcestos, 600 BC
9. Hindoo Saki, 600 BC
10. Mithra of Persia, 600 BC
11. Quexalcote of Mexico, 587 BC
12. Wittoba, 552 BC
13. Prometheus, 547 BC
14. Quirinus of Rome, 506 BC
15. Iao of Nepal, 422 BC
That's a staggering number, considering they all had the exact same lives. Even then, you could compare some of these people almost exactly to Jesus and get the same thing. Let's look at how amazingly similar the lives of Chrishna and Jesus are.
1. Crishna was born of a chaste virgin. :: Jesus was born of a chaste virgin.
2. The moment Chrishna was born, the whole cave was splendidly illuminated. :: The moment Jesus was born, there was a great light in the cave.
3. Chrishna was adored by cowherds who prostrated themselves before the heaven-born child. :: Jesus was adored by shepherds who prostrated themselves before the heaven-born child.
4. Chrishna was born when Nanda, his father, was away from home, having come to the city to pay his tax or tribute to the king. :: Jesus was born when Joseph, his father, was away from home, having come to the city to pay his tax or tribute to the governor.
5. Chrishna's father was warned by a ''heavenly voice" to fly with the child to Gacool, across the river Jumna, as the reigning monarch sought his life. :: Jesus' father was warned in a dream to take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, as the reigning monarch sought his life.
6. The ruler of the country in which Chrishna was born ordered the massacre of all the children of the male sex born during the night of the birth of Chrishna. :: The ruler of the country in which Jesus was born ordered all children in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, to be slain.
7. One of Chrishna's first miracles was the curing of a leper. :: One of Jesus' first miracles was the curing of a leper.
8. Chrishna was crucified, represented with arms extended hanging on a cross. :: Jesus was crucified, represented with arms extended hanging on a cross.
9. Chrishna, after being put to death, rose from the dead :: Jesus, after being put to death, rose from the dead.
That's a lot of similarities. You could say again that it is all coincidence, but you would only be fooling yourself. This is no coincidence, this is no myth. This is historical fact. Look any of these men up, and find that their lives are all in-sync with each other, that including Jesus.
So called "Christians."
Christianity is the biggest religion of the world, taking up one-third of the Earth's entire population, but it is also the religion with the most "fake" followers. I might say some things in this bit that will offend some of you. I hope you know that that is not what I'm trying to do; I am only trying to show you some things Christ did teach that you probably don't know about.
"If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell." Matthew 5:29
and..
"And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell." Matthew 5:30
Why do I see no Christians following these rules? It is obvious what Jesus is saying here. This is no metaphor; this is no play on words. This is a simple command Jesus gives to his followers, and yet none of them would ever take this verse to heart and actually obey it. I've heard Christians say that this is taken out of context. If you are truly want to be Christian, then you must have read the Bible at least once. You will know that this is not taken out of context. By Christians, every verse around these two is taken as literal, and yet these are mysteriously not. A bit odd, right?
"Don't grumble about each other, my brothers and sisters, or God will judge you..." -James 5:9
Self-explanatory, but it seems many Christians do not take these to heart either. America being 75% Christian, the "nation under God.", but also the nation that whines for just about anything.
"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth." -Exodus 20:4
You can't go to a Church nowadays without seeing a picture of Jesus on those expensive stained glass windows. So it seems all Churches are sinning twice in a row! Spending lots of extra money which could be used to help those in actual need, and sticking an image of Jesus ( An image which looks nothing like the true Jesus. ) on their windows, when it was never supposed to happen in the first place..
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." -Matthew 7:21
"If you love me, you will obey what I command." -John 14:15
"You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." -Matthew 5:48
These verses are pretty self-explanatory. I do not need to explain anything here.
Who was Jesus?
I don't claim to know exactly what kind of person Jesus was. It is taught that he was a great spiritual healer who never sinned, because it is said in the Bible that he was a great spiritual healer who never sinned. It is not taught that he sometimes got a little selfish, not caring for others, but it is said in the Bible that he sometimes got a little selfish, not caring for others. This, of course, is not taught in your average, every-day church. But lets look at some verses directly from the Gospels. Look all of these up yourself before claiming they are taken out of context; you will find that they are not.
"And Jesus said to him, 'Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man has nowhere to lay his head.' Another of the disciples said to him, 'Lord, let me first go and bury my father.' But Jesus said to him, 'Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead.'" - Matthew 8:20-22
It seems Jesus is sinning here; he seems to be going against another verse in the Bible, which is..
"In everything you do, stay away from complaining and arguing." -Philippians 2:14
And another..
"Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, 'Why do your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat.' He answered them, 'And why do you transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? For God commanded, `Honor your father and your mother,' and, `He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him surely die.' But you say, `If any one tells his father or his mother, What you would have gained from me is given to God, he need not honor his father.' So, for the sake of your tradition, you have made void the word of God, you hypocrites!"
Jesus goes off on those pharisees, and says that it is alright for a child to be killed if he speaks ill of his parents. This does not bode well with these two verses of the Bible; it seems Jesus has sinned again! It seems, even though Jesus may have been a great guy, that he also had his slip ups, just like the rest of us.
"Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way."
Romans 14:13
"Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. " Romans 12:14
The fact that Jesus says it is O.K. for children to be killed for disobeying their parents means quite a lot. Were the Old Testament teachings really annulled by Jesus? It doesn't seem that way. In fact, it seems like he was all for them.
"Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them." -Matthew 5:17
God in General
I can understand someone believing in God, but only if God was an observer to his creation. I can not understand someone believing in an all-loving God. Logic comes into play here, and saying that God is all-loving while 24.7 million people in Africa have AIDS while the world looks the other way, that diseases that kill can be transmitted by birth, that Stephen Hawkings.. a great, amazingly smart person will be sent to Hell for eternity for simply not believing in God because it was illogical to him, after having a life of being crippled and ridiculed by all.. does not seem all loving at all to me. Everyone should look at the world from everyone's viewpoint. Should Ghandi be in Hell right now? Of course not! But in Christian beliefs, he is. Charles Darwin? He's in there too. So is Buddha, Muhammed, and billions of others who obviously don't deserve it.
And the unjust laws that are associated with the God's of Abrahamic religions make no sense either. What is the point of homosexuality being a sin? What is the point of not believing being a sin? What is the point of ANYTHING being a sin unless it is harming someone on purpose? A truly loving God would allow everything and anything to happen, as long as it were not harming others. And that's not the case with religions today.
If God were all loving, he would have made sure that man never formed religion.
Well you were put on this World for a reason, and it's to worship God. What do you get in-return for being a righteous, believer for 50 years of your life? Your sins will be turned into deeds and you atain eternal Paradise. It's a once in a lifetime offer; take it or leave it. But only you alone will face the consequences of each decision. You are free to follow your own whims and desires for this temporary lifetime doing whatever you please, but you will not have a share in the Hereafter. OR you can give up all your passions, ego and desires in exchange for a share in the Hereafter. Now you decide.
To what end do you post this cobbler? You are welcome not to believe in God or Jesus or Christianity, just as you are welcome to believe in the existence of the flying spaghetti monster. how you choose to fill your time is up to you
A problem only occurs with religion when those beliefs (or non beliefs) are pressed onto other people.
The Catholic church have been selling a crock of gold at the end of the rainbow for hundreds of years to shore up their power base that is well known. However if people choose to allow themselves to be sucked into believing fairy stories that's their problem.
I should probably say my comment above apply equally to all the major religions.
dadpad wrote:To what end do you post this cobbler? You are welcome not to believe in God or Jesus or Christianity, just as you are welcome to believe in the existence of the flying spaghetti monster. how you choose to fill your time is up to you
A problem only occurs with religion when those beliefs (or non beliefs) are pressed onto other people.
The Catholic church have been selling a crock of gold at the end of the rainbow for hundreds of years to shore up their power base that is well known. However if people choose to allow themselves to be sucked into believing fairy stories that's their problem.
I should probably say my comment above apply equally to all the major religions.
Nicely said dadpad
Cobbler.Religion doesnt have to be a part of your life.Many people have perfectly happy lives without religion.
Religion tends to make you feel bad about 'normal' things.Just generally living a life where your as nice to people as you can possibly be but not denying yourself what you want is a good basis for a life.Religion does not have to be a part of it at all.
As you say, religion is made up by people, therefore it can be interpreted by anyone in any way they like, for good or bad.You can make your own decisions on religion, or decide not to live your life by others religious beliefs.
If you do decide to choose relgion make sure you interpret it yuorself and not by how others teach it to you.
I normally stay away from religious threads because ... well ... people can get a bit tense (for lack of a better word) and I am not as well-read or intelligent to keep up with their well-investigated ponderings.
Anyway, I would like to compliment you Cobbler on a very good post. I like to see how you question and wonder.
Personally I was raised Roman Catholic and had one parent who was 'very religious' (made us fall on our knees at noon every day to say the Angelus) and the other parent who didn't bother with religion at all unless there was a special event at Church and he fancied accompanying the family.
Anyway, perhaps because of my upbringing, I am not into organized religion in a big way. I tend to be skeptical of what I am told happened many years ago and wonder really how much of it is true and how much is a 'story'.
I have thought about the whole thing and although I have not investigated or read enough to be a decent debater on the subject, I am of the opinion that most of what is out there is heavily swayed and interpreted by the people and scribes who wrote the accounts and books and scrolls and whatever. You are right that so many of the accounts are so similar that they are obviously being adapted to a particular writers preference. Instead of Jesus, the glorified being becomes someone else - to suit another religious slant?
Anyway, I am not here to poop on anyone elses beliefs. I am quite happy to know that many many others believe and good for them. I myself believe that a long long time ago, the need for order and morality and a set of rules to guide people to try to behave in a good and cohesive fashion was so needed, that a group of intelligent people came together and discussed what to do. From there, religion evolved and because the need to believe in something that is greater than the sum of everything that we know is so ingrained in human beings that we are willing to take 'as gospel' (forgive the pun) a story that has been put together and that grew and grew and was adapted around the world to meet the needs of many.
It's not a bad thing. I actually think it did the world a lot of good. It's just such a shame that we humans, with our fervour and emotions, can use a good thing and turn it into something downright hideous at times.
I read the catechism while at school and found the stories enlightening. I learned a lesson from each and that is what they were supposed to do. Did I truly believe any of them happened, or happened exactly the way they were written? No. I believe they were used as a tool to teach me know to behave - to be good, to be truthful, to treat others well, to try and do the right thing. I don't have to be told that this thing really and truly happened and that I will go to hell if I do not believe or I do not act in the exact way the bible tells me to. That, in my personal opinion, is a load of hooey. Again, others would want to smack me for saying that, but if they were truly the good believers and the pious ones they would like to think they are then they would not berate me for it and would 'turn the other cheek' so-to-speak. To me, the point of religion is that downright evil not be allowed free reign on our society. Religion bands together people who are trying to live a good life and trying to allow their fellow-man/woman to do so also - a community working and living together and striving for happiness and some semblance of order so that, when bad things happen or desperate need arises, the community will come together and help to heal things and affect a change so things get better.
I've found religion and what I have been taught about it, a good lesson plan to show me how to do this. I just don't believe that the stories and histories and enforcement of each and every rule or statement or interpretation is absolute fact and non-debateable. I always thought these books were for teaching lessons and guiding, not for complete and absolute adherence.
Welcome to the forum, Cobb.
You forgot Nimrod and his mom Semiramis:
You have also allowed yourself to be confused by a smorgasbord of historical myths and misconceptions. You refer to Jesus' words in Matthew chapter 5, claiming them to be 'no metaphor' when even a cursory reading of Jesus' life and actions reveals otherwise.
I hope you stick around, though. You are obviously literate.
dadpad wrote:However if people choose to allow themselves to be sucked into believing fairy stories that's their problem.
I disagree. That is everyone's problem. If enough people buy into these fairy tales, sooner or later we will have schools that teach creationism and claim that evolution is false. We will have teachers who tell kids that the earth doesn't revolve around the sun, but that the sun revolves around the earth.
And that's only the beginning. Religion can be degenerative to the intellect of human beings, and the it goes against thinking for yourself, which I see as a great evil not just for the person buying into it, but for all who have to live with that person.
Not where I live. But I hear it's pretty bad in the US.
The beauty is we will always have people who will question everything and buck the societal rule. While they can be seen as a pain, they are a necessity. It's fine to go with the flow but once in a while you've got to say "hey, what is this bullshit you're feeding me?"
Cyracuz wrote:dadpad wrote:However if people choose to allow themselves to be sucked into believing fairy stories that's their problem.
I disagree. That is everyone's problem. If enough people buy into these fairy tales, sooner or later we will have schools that teach creationism and claim that evolution is false. We will have teachers who tell kids that the earth doesn't revolve around the sun, but that the sun revolves around the earth.
Yep, it is everyone's problem.
If you obeyed most of those on Earth, they would misguide you from Allah's way. They follow nothing but conjecture. They are only guessing. (Surat al-An'am: 116)
Raul-7 wrote:Well you were put on this World for a reason, and it's to worship God.
If God is real and omniscient, then he doesn't deserve to be worshiped.
Quote:What do you get in-return for being a righteous, believer for 50 years of your life? Your sins will be turned into deeds and you attain eternal Paradise. It's a once in a lifetime offer; take it or leave it. But only you alone will face the consequences of each decision.
If you are being a believer out of only fear and hope for reward in the afterlife, then you aren't truly "righteous". You're simply obeying what you believe for your personal gain, which in this case would be reward in the afterlife. If believers were truly righteous, they would go about doing good deeds even if they thought they were going to Hell no matter what they did.
Quote:You are free to follow your own whims and desires for this temporary lifetime doing whatever you please, but you will not have a share in the Hereafter. OR you can give up all your passions, ego and desires in exchange for a share in the Hereafter. Now you decide.
What if my whims, desires, and passions are to help people in this life? I don't think that deserves reward, because that's not why we should be helping people.. but I do think that if there is any kind of reward for what goes on in this life, it comes from how good of people we are, without the thought of ever getting recognized. Not what we believe in.
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And to the others, the point of this post.. I don't know really. I'm from a Southern-Baptist community in Mississippi. Everyone, except me and my small group of friends, is Christian. If you aren't Christian, you are considered evil and are generally treated like crap. Of course, nobody down here is truly Christian, but either way..
I felt like showing some of my friends why I'm not Christian, so I wrote out this post and sent the link to them all. Of course they think it's all rubbish, but eh, anyway. Thanks for the responses, guys.
Cobbler wrote:Everyone, except me and my small group of friends, is Christian. If you aren't Christian, you are considered evil and are generally treated like crap. Of course, nobody down here is truly Christian, but either way..
I felt like showing some of my friends why I'm not Christian, so I wrote out this post and sent the link to them all. Of course they think it's all rubbish, but eh, anyway. Thanks for the responses, guys.
You think that's bad. Try being a non-believer in a whole family of born-again christians. That REALLY sucks.
kickycan wrote:Cobbler wrote:Everyone, except me and my small group of friends, is Christian. If you aren't Christian, you are considered evil and are generally treated like crap. Of course, nobody down here is truly Christian, but either way..
I felt like showing some of my friends why I'm not Christian, so I wrote out this post and sent the link to them all. Of course they think it's all rubbish, but eh, anyway. Thanks for the responses, guys.
You think that's bad. Try being a non-believer in a whole family of born-again christians. That REALLY sucks.
That's what I am; I guess I forgot to mention it. That's another problem I'm having.. too many Church functions that I feel extremely uncomfortable in and would rather not go to. I don't know how to tell them, though. When I finally do, it will be Judgment Day in this household.
Yeah, that sounds like it sucks. At least I'm older and don't live with them, which means I don't have to deal with it all the time. My biggest problems are when I have to go visit for Christmas and Easter. Torture. Pure torture. I have a sister-in-law who just loves to bring up the fact that I'm not a christian, and taunt me about it. Makes me want to smack the Jesus right outta her.
I feel for you. I told my parents many times that I don't believe in god and I can't stand all that religious BS, but they just don't get the message. They are in total denial that their first-born son is going to spend eternity in the darkest pits of hell!
Craziness.
A tip though. When/if you ever decide to tell them, be prepared for an emotional outpouring. My mom actually cried the first time I ever said to her that I don't believe in god. It really hurt me to see that.
kickycan wrote:A tip though. When/if you ever decide to tell them, be prepared for an emotional outpouring. My mom actually cried the first time I ever said to her that I don't believe in god. It really hurt me to see that.
Thanks; that's what I'm expecting. That plus my dad kicking me in the face, or something.
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