Free will .......

Actually, our free will often results in our making choices that give us results we had NOT known about, does it not?

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Your question really presupposes free-will and therefore denies the point of the thread.

Simply put, how can we be said to choose a course of action without knowing the outcome of said action?

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Interesting free will thread

http://able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1731496#1731496

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real life wrote:

Actually, our free will often results in our making choices that give us results we had NOT known about, does it not?

Would choosing not to choose give different 'known' results?

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Free will is bollocks. There is will, but it's not free. I'm not even sure it's all ours.

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Cyracuz wrote:

Free will is bollocks. There is will, but it's not free. I'm not even sure it's all ours.

Three allegations of truth can only be answered with three questions, to wit:

How does free will mess what things up?

If will is not free, who owns it?

If not ours, then to whom does it belong?

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Gel's wrote:

Three allegations of truth can only be answered with three questions, to wit:

How does free will mess what things up?
All we need to do is look at the world around you.

If will is not free, who owns it?
Our genes and our environemt owns it.

If not ours, then to whom does it belong?
We own it more than others, but only if our brains are not controlled by drugs, alcoholism, schitzophrenia or bipolar depression.

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Will is not free. It has a price, and it's called consequence. Also, it's bound by thought, physics and the conditions leading up to the individual possessing will.

Who owns it? No one. Everyone.

And the last question was identical to the second only phrased differently.

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Quote:

If will is not free, who owns it?

Maybe it is "owned" by causality? Here's a question for you: Is sentience above or otherwise set apart from causality? Or to put it another way, does sentience operate outside the physical laws of the universe?

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psw, I can agree with your definition if it includes the brains capacity.

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Gelisgesti wrote:

real life wrote:
Actually, our free will often results in our making choices that give us results we had NOT known about, does it not?

Would choosing not to choose give different 'known' results?

Choosing 'not to choose' is, of course, a choice.

It is choosing passivity, or inaction.

It may lead to consequences that we can foresee (know) or that we do not.

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Sorry cicerone, you've lost me there. What did I define?

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"Causality" has a very common meaning.

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I asked questions. I didn't define any term. I'm not trying to be fascetious I just do not understand what you mean.

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Cyracuz wrote:

Will is not free. It has a price, and it's called consequence. Also, it's bound by thought, physics and the conditions leading up to the individual possessing will.

Who owns it? No one. Everyone.

And the last question was identical to the second only phrased differently.

That we may be subject to physical limitations does not diminish the worth of our free will. If we are bound by necessity to the consequences of past events, then there is no justice in law.

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You wrote: Maybe it is "owned" by causality?

I answered: psw, I can agree with your definition if it includes the brains capacity.

Definition of "causality" - cause and effect.

Sorry I didn't make myself clear. As for "is sentience above or otherwise set apart from causality," I'm not sure how it can be. The only laws it follows in the biological and chemical actions of the brain.

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I see, thanks for clarifying. The point of my post was to to posit a distinction between the brain and sentience and ask whether such a distinction is valid. However, your initial response seems to assume there is no distinction yet offered no satisfactory explanation.

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If we accept the following premises:

1) Sentience and self awareness are the products of the brain and
2) The brain is a purely physical thing, subject to the physical laws of the universe and
3) The universe has no choices to make,

Then is it valid to draw the conclusion that sentience has no feedom to choose?

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Cyracuz wrote:

Will is not free. It has a price, and it's called consequence. Also, it's bound by thought, physics and the conditions leading up to the individual possessing will.

You stated "Free will is bollocks." ....the definition of bullock is messed up. How is your answer responsive to my question

Who owns it? No one. Everyone.

What?

And the last question was identical to the second only phrased differently.

You said "I'm not even sure it's all ours." If our free will is not ours then who owns it?

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I don't know. I don't know why I wrote that. I didn't want to. But I did it anyway... :wink:

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Free will .......

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