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Court Vicrtory against terrorists.

 
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Feb, 2007 01:40 pm
More pleasant reading.

http://nationaljournal.com/about/njweekly/stories/2006/0203nj4.htm

Quote:
Much of the evidence against the detainees is weak. One prisoner at Guantanamo, for example, has made accusations against more than 60 of his fellow inmates; that's more than 10 percent of Guantanamo's entire prison population. The veracity of this prisoner's accusations is in doubt after a Syrian prisoner, Mohammed al-Tumani, 19, who was arrested in Pakistan, flatly denied to his Combatant Status Review Tribunal that he'd attended the jihadist training camp that the tribunal record said he did.

Tumani's denial was bolstered by his American "personal representative," one of the U.S. military officers -- not lawyers -- who are tasked with helping prisoners navigate the tribunals. Tumani's enterprising representative looked at the classified evidence against the Syrian youth and found that just one man -- the aforementioned accuser -- had placed Tumani at the terrorist training camp. And he had placed Tumani there three months before the teenager had even entered Afghanistan. The curious U.S. officer pulled the classified file of the accuser, saw that he had accused 60 men, and, suddenly skeptical, pulled the files of every detainee the accuser had placed at the one training camp. None of the men had been in Afghanistan at the time the accuser said he saw them at the camp.

The tribunal declared Tumani an enemy combatant anyway.


Certainly if this is the standard of evidence and proof that the tribunals will use in Gitmo then they ought to have access to US courts.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Feb, 2007 01:46 pm
No, they shouldn't. They should have a military tribunal that looks into their cases so that any secret evidence or informants or methods of gaining intelligence is not compromised. That is the reason why American courts are being kept out of the situation.

The 6 Bosnians should not be in Gitmo. They should be in Bosnia where they were captured.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Feb, 2007 01:52 pm
But according to the military tribunal, they should remain in Gitmo as enemy combatants. The tribunals ARE looking into the cases according to a very, absurdly low standard of evidence. In the snippet I just quoted, an American serviceman looked at the classified evidence, found that there was just one accusation made against the accused by one witness, a witness who also accused 10 percent of the Gitmo population, that the accused could not have physically done what he was accused of, and still he was declared to be an enemy combatant. Why is that good enough for you, McG? What is a kangaroo court if not that?
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Feb, 2007 02:11 pm
Judge Roy Bean; Do you have anything to say before we find you guilty?
Sam Dodd: I'm not guilty of nothing. There's no crime that I've done wrong.
Judge Roy Bean: Do you deny the killing?
Sam Dodd: I do not deny it. But there's no place in that book where it says nothing about killing a Chinese. And no one I know ever heard a law on greasers, niggers, or injuns.
Judge Roy Bean: All men stand equal before the law. And I will hang a man for killing anyone, including Chinks, greasers, or niggers! I'm very advanced in my views and outspoken.
Sam Dodd: There's no place in that book that...
Judge Roy Bean: Trust in my judgment of the book. Besides, you're gonna hang no matter what it says in there, 'cause I am the law, and the law is the handmaiden of justice. Get a rope.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Feb, 2007 02:35 pm
for anyone who wants to have an inside view - from defence lawyer's point of view - of GUANTANAMO , i suggest you read the article shown in the link below .
since it's a lenghty article i don't want to take up space here , except for a short snippet :
Quote:


you might remember that this is not an interview with some "liberal , pinko" lawyer , but with JAG Lieutenant Commander Charles Swift .
a pretty chilling account of what's going on , imo.
hbg


JAG Lieutenant Commander Charles Swift
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Feb, 2007 09:05 am
McGentrix wrote:
Being released does not prove ones guilt or innocence.

Neither does being detained in the first place -- or being kept. Only a reasonably fair trial can establish guilt or innocence. And the Kangoroo courts at Guantanamo Bay don't meet any reasonable standard of fairness.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Feb, 2007 10:48 am
McGentrix wrote:
Quote:
Being released does not prove ones guilt or innocence.


surely , an accused cannot be guilty under the laws of the land if being released before sentence has been passed ?
is there some kind of a law that says : you'll be released but you are still guilty of the crime ? (i'm talking here of a major crime , not someone stealing a left shoe) .

so if someone is being released as 'not guilty' , can it be saiid that under the laws of the land the person is still not innocent of having committed the crime ?

i'm not talking of public opinion here - which can go one way
or the other - , but the lawful judgement being rendered in a court of justice .

i've never heard of a judgement which said : you are not guilty of the crime and will be released from court immediately but you not innocent of having committed the crime .

i would appreciate some clarification from someone knowing the law .
hbg
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Feb, 2007 10:57 am
i saw this on a blog and wonder if that is a correct of american law ?
in particular : "As the American legal system rests on the concept of being not guilty until so proved, that makes Briggs an innocent woman" .
is that an incorrect statement ?
hbg

Quote:
Friday, September 01, 2006
For DA, innocent under the law may not be innocent enough
Having just blogged about the first Tulia defendant's compensation by the state for his wrongful incarceration, I was interested to read an editorial from today's Houston Chronicle ("Grudging Justice," Sept. 1) urging District Attorney Chuck Rosenthal to allow similar payment to Brandy Del Riggs, who was recently released on appeal after spending five years in prison. As the newspaper points out, that means she should be eligible for compensation, too. Wrote the Chronicle's editors:


By declining to retry 25-year-old Brandy Del Briggs in the death of her 2-month-old baby, Daniel, in 1999, Harris County prosecutors have admitted their evidence is inadequate to convict her. As the American legal system rests on the concept of being not guilty until so proved, that makes Briggs an innocent woman.


...GUILTY OR INNOCENT ?...
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Feb, 2007 11:02 am
Yes, that is correct. What we have here is a system outside of the American legal system -- deliberately so. The purpose of having it outside of the American legal system is so that we don't have to afford people their civil rights, or provide them due process, or even a trial at all.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Feb, 2007 11:07 am
freduck wrote :
Quote:
Yes, that is correct. What we have here is a system outside of the American legal system -- deliberately so. The purpose of having it outside of the American legal system is so that we don't have to afford people their civil rights, or provide them due process, or even a trial at all.


...as is quite well documented in the VANITY FAIR article i referenced in an earlier post .
thanks for your comments , freeduck !
hbg
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Feb, 2007 02:08 pm
Really interesting reading here, for anyone who has time.

http://www.moreliberty.org/more_liberty/2006/11/enemy_combatant.html
0 Replies
 
anton
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Feb, 2007 09:48 pm
Reading this thread only fortifies my opinion that many in the US have no idea of what the principle of democracy is all about, perhaps some opinions would change if American soldiers were abducted and locked away in secret locations for years on end without access to their families and denied the right of habeas corpus. In a civilized society everyone is entitled to the rule of law which says all are innocent until proven guilty, none of those wretched people, locked away in Guantanamo Bay, have been charged or tried in a court of law, so how can anyone, other than an ignorant uncivilized fool, find them guilty of anything?
0 Replies
 
NickFun
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Feb, 2007 10:44 pm
Totally correct Anton. But keep in mind, our government is filled with ignorant, uncivilized fools.
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Feb, 2007 07:33 am
anton wrote:
Reading this thread only fortifies my opinion that many in the US have no idea of what the principle of democracy is all about, perhaps some opinions would change if American soldiers were abducted and locked away in secret locations for years on end without access to their families and denied the right of habeas corpus. In a civilized society everyone is entitled to the rule of law which says all are innocent until proven guilty, none of those wretched people, locked away in Guantanamo Bay, have been charged or tried in a court of law, so how can anyone, other than an ignorant uncivilized fool, find them guilty of anything?


The big difference here is that US troops are part of a recognized army. None of the people picked up in Iraq or Afghanistan are part of a recognized army. They don't wear uniforms and don't carry with them ID cards that say so. My military ID says right on it Geneva Conventions ID card.

You guys can try and relate all of this to the US military having people picked up but we wear our uniforms, carry our ID's terrorists and suspected terrorists don't do any of these. When everyone is out on the streets, you can tell who we are with.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Feb, 2007 07:38 am
I had (and have) just a dog tag - nothing mentioned about Geneva Convetions on it.

My military ID wasn't thaught to get in enemy's hand :wink:
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Feb, 2007 07:47 am
Baldimo is right. A better analogy would be having our citizens kidnapped off of our streets and transported to a facility in, say, Algeria where they were afforded neither the rights of our legal system nor the rights of Algeria's (whatever that might be). Legal purgatory for US citizens? That sound reasonable to you, Baldimo?
0 Replies
 
NickFun
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Feb, 2007 09:35 am
There is no good argument for suspending human rights. Our government is the most reprehensible one on Earth at the moment.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Feb, 2007 09:50 am
NickFun wrote:
There is no good argument for suspending human rights. Our government is the most reprehensible one on Earth at the moment.


Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Feb, 2007 09:53 am
NickFun wrote:
There is no good argument for suspending human rights. Our government is the most reprehensible one on Earth at the moment.


So,our govt is worse then North Korea's?
THere never were "human rights" for the citizens of that country,or doesnt that count.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Feb, 2007 09:58 am
NickFun wrote:
There is no good argument for suspending human rights. Our government is the most reprehensible one on Earth at the moment.


I seriously doubt that we can claim that title. We have a tendency, here in this country, to see these injustices as catastrophic because we have been taught since day one that America is a beacon of liberty and justice for all. There is nothing quite like disillusionment to make us bitter.
0 Replies
 
 

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