I like our efforts toward the freedom of other peoples. I dislike our efforts to keep certain peoples in certain conditions from being free.
McTag, What would the world have done without the light bulb?
Craven
Quote:I dislike our efforts to keep certain peoples in certain conditions from being free.
If you don't mind. Could you be a little more specific?
McTag
When you have it, why not flaunt it.
Because it's ugly. Shoulda realized you want to bathe in jingoism.
Quick effort at being specific: Saudi Arabia, other nations that are not free and how we only do anything if it's in our interest.
I love the focus on freedom, but disloke how it is used as a pretext.
au,
I don't suppose this will make any sense to you but some disagree that we "got it". Others are simply disgusted by blind adoration and the inclination to paint anyone who isn't so enamoured as traitorous.
I often am angry at you for policing for "unAmerican" activities here. Mainly because you act like your adulation is the bare minimum we should have.
Sure there is excess negativity, but the converse also exists.
What I think is so INTERESTING about America is that there are good reasons to advance both the very positive views of the place, AND the negative ones - that is, that your country, culture and foreign policies contain such huge contradictions.
What I think is great about the place is the intensity and energy and drive; the variety and expressiveness; lots of the films and music and art and literature; New York (I wanna live there for a few years!); the natural environment.
Sofia wrote:Go where you may, search where you will, roam through all the monarchies and despotisms of the Old World, travel through South America, search out every abuse, and when you have found the last, lay your facts by the side of the everyday practices of this nation, and you will say with me, that, for revolting barbarity and shameless hypocrisy, America reigns without a rival....
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It's pretty clear Freddy missed a few counties and continents on his search for every abuse. That statement is BS.
Sofia,
It WOULD be BS to make that assertion today. In Douglass' time it was TRUE.
PS
Your flippant, 'Freddy' does not become you.
Douglass was a great man.
Craven
Quote:
I often am angry at you for policing for "un-American" activities here. Mainly because you act like your adulation is the bare minimum we should have.
I neither said anything about un-American or even suggested that people agree with me. My feelings about the US are mine alone. However, in this instance I have never even expressed them and the link was to an article in the Christian science monitor.
As for my question to you I was just looking for clarification. Now that you have given it I am curious as to what you think we could do about Saudi Arabia or the many nations like it? Bush may think so but we do not rule the world or are we the arbiter of the worlds morality.
In the case of Saudi Arabia there really is not much we could do. To lessen our support for the Saudi regime could cause suffering around the world in the form of economic instability.
Saudi Arabia is clinging to two things, it's status as the nation with the largest oil reserves and their status among muslim nations as the cradle of their religion.
My point was not so much that we should change our position in Saudi Arabia so much as that "freedom" a noble ideal and one that many americans cherish, is often used as a pretext for less noble things.
The freedom angle is quite hyped in this recent war in Iraq, but I'm not convinced taht it was the motive, after all, when Iraqis were suffering in the past they suffered more so than under Sadaam's crippled regime. But since it wasn't to our benefit then few American's cared about the Iraqi suffering.
Truth to tell it's difficult to get all worked up about suffering across the globe, there is so much. But it seems in modern America suffering and lack of freedoms often only takes the limelight in certain situations.
Take Liberia for example, far more people have died there and much more suffering happens there than in Iraq. We are sending a few troops and we are indeed willing to help but America's love for the freedoms of others varies greatly. Liberia is a place with more suffering than Iraq and just about the whole world welcomes our entry into that conflict but much of the focus on "freedom" is used to justify the invasion of Iraq.
I love freedom, I like to be realistic about it and in some cases like Saudi Arabia there is not a whole lot we can do to bring about freedom directly. But I dislike that the mantra of "exporting freedom" is exploited.
I also dislike that we act like we are the world's freest nation, or that we invented the notion. I love our foundation on certain freedoms but that is simply not true.
As to my dislike of jingoism it's due to the fact that I find it res[onsible for much of the problems in the world. It is used as a rallying call, sometimes for good and sometimes for bad.
Thing is, cheering for the home team is nice, but this is not a football game, and the objective need not be to beat anyone. I don't mind a true love of a country, i find it simplistic and ignorant but there are lots of ignorant attitudes.
What I dislike are the hall monitoes enforcing the school spirit. The greatest power of patriotism is the united mob mentality. At times I hate when that mentality tries to dictate opinion. At all times do i find that mob mentality and "us vs. them" mentality territorial, base and the anti-thesis to the modern world.
We are all human but distance and lines in the sand have long separated us into groups with beliefs and cultures that we are willing to kill each other over.
As the world grows smaller and globalization brings us closer together I decry the territorialism and jingoism. It's not a logical basis for interaction. It's simply another powerful form of extremism. It elevates the value of the human lives around you in a base primordial way. While some of it will always be with us I hope for a more enlightened mentality. One that does not make the nationality you were born into the primary factor.
I love many aspects of many nations. I am grateful to have been born with American nationality. It's like winning a lottery ticket.
In country after country I have seen my nationality give me advantage over other decent people. That's why I am angered by the people who act like they are entitled to something or responsible in some way for this.
I hear the "we saved your asses" from jingoistic teenagers who have not done a thing toward the greatness of America.
America is great, in many definitions of the word. But it largely comes down to us winning the global competitions. Sometimes we are nice and sometimes we are not.
That we are winning is not indicative of superiority in every way, it's not a liscense for hubris. It means we are doing well, we made winning moves and that we caught some lucky breaks.
Winners don't stay winners forever, America is a dynasty that I believe will outlast me. But we are on top for now, it won't last and if we slip to second place it doesn't mean we are any worse as a nation.
And those who currently are not "number one" don't feel inferior and don't appreciate the beating of the chest. There are many areas in which some nations excel, and each is proud of their own forté. Unfortunately the pride does little good, and id often solicited for use as political capital.
Another big reason I dislike patriotism is because it's often used as a way of distracting from negative elements that need change.
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McTag,
Many innovations have come about in america. It's a good thing.
The UK gets my kudos as well for their intellectual breakthroughs. In many areas (take discovering stars for e.g.) the UK is second only to the US, and that's only due to the size difference.
BTW, yes, you didn't say anything about "unamerican" activities in this thread. But you frequently do and you frequently exhibit great disgust for persons who are not as patriotic as you. It's palpable.
You also have a few tell tale signs when you are feeling particularly jingoistic and think those around don't exhibit enough patriotsm.
Some obvious signs are when you tell them outright (comments like "I wonder what side of the border you are on?") and other signs are when you post things that are actually a bit more extreme than your own positions in order to counter perceived "unAmericaness".
Responding to this:
Sofia,
It WOULD be BS to make that assertion today. In Douglass' time it was TRUE.
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It was not posted here in Douglass' time, but on the Fourth of July in response to a current piece on modern day America.
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PS
Your flippant, 'Freddy' does not become you.
Douglass was a great man.
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There's alot of flippancy going around. I see others are allowed to choose who they think is great, and who they will afford respect. I'll do the same.
I suggest those who have not done so read Douglas's autobiography. I don't think it is posible to come away from that with no respect for the man ...
I reserve the right to refer to that man as Freddy. For no reason other than I choose to do so.
<I've moved on to Lock and Load>
Serenity now didn't work for me.
I noticed, one can still hope.
"Serenity now" didn't work for anyone! LOL.
A couple shots of vodka probably works better than just saying "serenity now."
c.i.
I'm not mad at Freddy or anything...
He had uncommonly expansive hair for the times.
He looked much better in ruffly blouses, than did most of the guys back then.
