Craven de Kere wrote:I don't get your trick soz. If I were ogled by a busload by people of any variety I'd be surprised. It would be an odd experience and probably more interesting than my average bus ride.
Craven - I think I understand your point of view, and I was somewhat uncomfortable with the example, on a number of levels (although, in a differing form, I have used a similar one myself, on occasion) - however, what IS different, generally, for men and women, is that it is more common for a woman to be ogled - by whatever percentage of men it may happen to be - on a bus than it is for men. Also, for many women there is an implicit threat inherent in the experience of being ogled by men on buses, that is not, generally, there for men ogled by women - that of having an ogler - or more than one, alight from the bus when you do, follow you, and sexually assault or terrorise you. In fact, this does not happen often.. In reality, most women are, I believe, constantly subliminally, or consciously, aware that it MAY happen. To most of us, it HAS happened - at some level, to some degree. You wrote, very well, very horrifyingly, of various attacks upon you. Especially vivid was the account you wrote of the time you wore the "wrong" football top, and were attacked for that. You wrote of blaming yourself for being so stupid, or innocent, of how you felt you could have walked faster, been wiser, whatever. I know, knowing you, that you are aware of the ridiculous, ignorant but horribly internalized wider societal context that gives sexual attacks a special horror - the exaggerated (for it is a universal response to trauma) "what did she/I do to deserve it/make it happen?" factor. Believe me, this IS a special factor in sexual assault. I KNOW this. I KNOW how loved ones, offenders, courts view this. It is the one area of criminal assault where the plaintiff is - almost universally, and almost regardless of age - guilty until proven innocent. I am sufficiently aware of law and justice to be aware that, as regards adults, it IS an especially fraught area of law, because sexual assault cruelly mimics acts undertaken in joy and love and delight. You know, I almost think this is a special burden for men/boys who have experienced sexual assault, since this is, traditionally, albeit wrongly, seen as something that ought to/does happen only to females. Insult added to injury.
I think it is a little disingenuous of you to write about the putative ogling experience as though it would be experienced in the same way by the average man and woman. I believe it would not. I might add that, while it is not a typical experience for either sex, that "ogling" by whole busloads of men DOES occur - in incidences such as being passed by a bus full of male sporting teams, bucks' nights, drunk buses and such-like. It is generally an unpleasant experience.
You will criticise me, I know, for moving from ogling to sexual assault - I know that we differ in seeing these as either "harmless enthusiasm vs aberrant/criminal behaviour" ( which I think is your belief - I accept that I may have misrepresented you) or as "differing extremes of the same spectrum" - (me). If I may quote, in some explication, from something I wrote elsewhere:
"However, to me, when a society often shows its evil and cruelty along certain fracture lines, there is a structural/psychodynamic issue happening.
(As an illustration, I added the following "similar" case) Not all slave owners tortured and abused their slaves. (I add for this post: Not all white people behaved with cruelty and insensitivity to black people in the USA prior to the passing of the various civil rights bills in the sixties. Not all white Australians treated Aboriginal people as subhuman.) However, to deny that there is an underlying structure in human consciousness that we call racism that allowed the sick few to do so, is, to me, a denial of reality and reason."
I have a problem here in that I do see appreciative/flirtatious looks and behaviour etc as both harmless and charming and, often, delightful - one of the loveliest forms of play between humans - and I find it difficult to define the exact moment this turns into something ugly, however, I believe it does so well before the "sick" or criminal level is reached. I find it hard, as I said, to be absolutely accurate about this point - but I can tell you that the experience of being ogled is a horrid one, for most women, I venture to say, while the appreciative or flirtatious glance is a warm and positive one. I wonder if, in a way, if this mirrors the dilemma of sexual assault that I discussed earlier in this interminable post in these terms: " sexual assault cruelly mimics acts undertaken in joy and love and delight"?
I understand (as far as I am able) that this, in the current climate, can present a real difficulty for many of the many men of most sensitivity, goodwill and understanding and decency , in terms of confusion about how to behave in the great dance between the genders, leading to tension or hurt or anger or frustration or constricted behaviour - or whatever other feelings it may give rise to. I hope this is a temporary thing - I am sorry for it. I am aware of similar difficulties in relation to white/black, deaf/hearing etc behaviour, but I suspect it is most fraught in this area.
Craven de Kere wrote:You make the men sound like a pack of predators. I understand a bit of it (though I think a "busload is quite an exagerration, I have been on many a bus and the oglers were always in the minority.
That being said I think I can empathyze with the ogle complaints. I think much of it is fueled by some truely dastardly men and that you generalze very much.
Yes - I can understand that being made to feel like one of "a pack of predators" is a horrible and wounding and unfair experience. I suspect, upon reading this, that I have been guilty of doing that very thing, and I am sorry for it. I agree with you that this is not a helpful, or fair, way to proceed. I do not THINK this way, though I know that I have FELT this, at times, when I have been very wounded and angry - and it may well have become part of my emotional landscape in a way that is not always fully visible to me.
We differ a little around the "a few truly dastardly men" thing - I think the behaviour is far more common than you admit it to be - and doubtless far less common than I FEEL it to be - I suspect your later trauma comments are very relevant here. (Actually, on re-reading, I think you talked about trauma on another thread - it seems we now have three, or is it four, threads exploring similar themes, and I am mixing them.)
As you know, I think the more obnoxious behaviour is enabled by an underlying structural something that I call sexism - not just by male sexual enthusiasm, which I think would not so commonly take this form in a differing structure - I wonder if your comments elsewhere about how these behaviours are differently expressed, or expressed to a lesser extent in, say, the USA and Brazil is a case in point?
Craven de Kere wrote:I have seen busloads of people stick their body out of the bus (qualifier: busloads of youth) windows and yell at me and my girlfriend "Your girlfriend looks tasty cuckold!" (in Portuguese, of course).
Craven, I am interested - what is your analysis of why these young men spoke to YOU? I have spoken elsewhere, very bitterly, of being harassed by men on the street who, on becoming aware that I was, in fact, with a male partner, have apologised not to me, but to HIM. What is your analysis of that? I see the behaviours as very similar, by the way - which is why I have drawn in something you did not mention.
Craven de Kere wrote:My girlfriend hated riding on a bus because occasionally a pervert would rub up against her.
At a crowded bus stop (I'm talking the main avenue of Brazil right after work, easily over 50 people) men have pulled out their privates and said disgusting things. I had two other friends that had a car drive by with a man exposing himself and when I heard it I noticed how much it worried them.
I could go on forever, there are so many of these stories that I have heard. Some far far worse than what I have mentioned here, and because of the fact that this happens with regularity I understand how many women generalize about this.
But ask every man if he does these things and you will see a starkly different statistical rate.
To be fair, ask everyone if they are a leader or a follower and you'll get more leaders than followers.
Yes, I know you notice these things, and are disgusted by them - every man I have as a friend and colleague feels the same way. It is actually good and helpful to know that you and other men are aware of how awful these kinds of experiences are, and that they do not trivialise them - because I have been in many situations where they were trivialised and seen as harmless and I was seen as stupid, or even crazy to object to them. (And not just by men.) I am glad that things in many people's consciousnesses have shifted.
Craven de Kere wrote:But it does highlight something interesting about experience.
How much does experience within an individual microcosm (as all our lives are) result into blatant hyperbole?
It's obvious that there is a huge difference in perception. One person here is talking in absolute terms. Busloads. Code, and I love him for this, manages to raise this every time without reacting the way I do.
It bothers me that such hyperbole is used about men while if we generalize about women it's discrimination.
Craven, what you write is very interesting, and I am still in the process of thinking it through.
My comment at this time is, though, is that, (let us speak only of women at this moment, in relation to sexism/crazy feminism - whatever we call it) is that, while each of us lives and experiences "within an individual microcosm", that when many of us have very similar experiences, we are starting to look beyond the individual, to something that we can argue is operating at a societal level (the old slogan "the personal is political" is, I think, a very relevant one.)
When many black people have similar experiences within a country, we may be looking at racism, no? Would we be wanting to argue that we cannot connect those experiences?
I am not denying, by the way, that, whether on an individual level or a "movement" level, there is the possibility, and very likely the actuality, of over-generalization and hyperbole.
I find myself wondering if such is not, to some extent, necessary at times? I do not know. I do see how wounding it is to the group hyperbolized about. I can most easily see this in relation to being a white person listening to discussions about racism. I have said elsewhere about how this makes me feel - "I didn't do that - I am not like that!" However, I accept that I AM partly like that, and I benefit from the people who DID do that - just as I benefit from other injustices in the world.. I would like the discussions not to be like they sometimes are - they make me feel awful. I do not, however, expect or particularly want them not to be like it. Maybe I am a sucker, and wrong, and it would be better if the anger were not there when I go to support Aboriginal people, say, at various meetings and rallies. I guess I kind of assume that one day, it will fade, if we can address some of the problems together. Dunno. I have realised I am rambling, and my analogy is far from perfect, and the challenges far different in sharpness, as I, gubba that I am, would likely be sharply reminded if I were at an Aboriginal meeting.
Craven de Kere wrote:But recently I realized that I am far more willing to accept an extreme edge in other social movements.
So now I wonder about the questions this topic raises. If you think it's hard for a man to empathize with the ogling how well do you think women empathyze with the fact that men have to listen to them painted as busloads of apes. Predatory in nature (I try to understand the size difference's effect on women but a reverse comparson is also relevant. How much does the size and strength difference and the criminal behavior of few generalize into greater suspicion of predatory intent for us all?) and then to have the homophobia angle exploited (in my personal experience women are alltogether too willing to toy with male homophobia, I don't really blame the because it must look kinda funny, but it's patronizing to any man who is not as backward as the broad brush paint).
I try to empathyze, I try to think about the truly horrific experiences that some women have suffered at the hands of men. I think of the inequality for women throughout history.
I still find it hard to accept the generalizations. Especially when some men work so hard to avoid the generalizations that are unfair to women.
Fighting the negative connotation of promiscuity for women, the uphill battle to rid society of the unfairness of the words stud and slut.
Language itself is discriminatory, attitudes are patronizing. There is much progress to be made for equality. When we have trouble understanding we have to fight the urge to ascribe, in generalized terms, the lack of logic, mercurial and fickle nature of emotion to things that confuse us.
With all that is done and that needs to be done to erase stereotypes and discrimination of the sexes it's hard to see busloads of oglers as a serious question. It's a brush that dips itself in the darkest ink and paints with the widest swath. It's a pity that the obscene and crminal behavior of the minority is the characterization we are supposed to attempt to understand is a perfect example of generalized hyperbole.
But like I said I am wondering of I react poorly to the more extreme edge of feminism and it is sad. In nations such as Japan and Latin nations feminism was an ideal I held highly while in nations with greater gender equality such as America there are elements that turn me off.
Is this an experience issue? Will the generalizations about men become more understandable if I were to walk the proverbial mile?
Craven, I am continuing to think about what you have said.
I have nearly written a novel, as it is - and it is very late - and I am sure nobody will wade their way through all the verbiage to this point anyway!
I have already attempted to address the connection between the "busload of oglers" and the darker stuff. I doubt that we will ever see eye to eye on that - I hope our eyes can meet despite that. It has been good to see a little more clearly through yours on this issue. I have appreciated the content of your post greatly.
(PS: Er, Craven, could you explicate, at some point, what you mean by: "then to have the homophobia angle exploited (in my personal experience women are alltogether too willing to toy with male homophobia, I don't really blame the because it must look kinda funny, but it's patronizing to any man who is not as backward as the broad brush paint)."? I am totally bamboozled by that comment!)
