Born again

Janis Joplin had a thought on that ...."it' all the same fn day man"

A-glow, you told Tycoon that "not everyone SPOUTS 'religion'. I agree, but, while I don't want to sound too hokie, I would suggest that virtually everyone SPROUTS 'religion' in one form or another--as an innate (or natural) need to assign some ultimate meaning to their life experience.

JLN, is it possible to have a belief in regard to the meaning of life without the entanglements of religion and it's obligatory 'deity', yet, something greater than the sum of yourself?

I've wondered that too. Not from anything other than anecdotal information/observations of my own. I noticed it especially with my son, because he's the only baby I've cared for from the very first moment after birth (we adopted my daughter when she was five months old), a certain depth in his eyes. He used to look in my eyes and I felt that he was the teacher and I was the student- he seemed so much wiser than me- calmer, more centered somehow. It was wild. And I did learn a lot from him. Because I just had this feeling that he had come more recently from the "source" of life- or whatever, and that he still remembered things I had forgotten.

Of course time steals that from every child as the world infringes and takes over in terms of their consciousness.

I'm reading a book about a child with autism (by his mother) and she is very good at recounting and describing his reactions to the world from the very beginning. And the overriding reaction of his that she describes is discomfort. And it almost made me think that those individuals who have sensory integration issues such as autism, are rebelling against leaving a world of peace and silence and being thrown into a world of chaotic stimulation, and unlike the majority of us, they are never able to forget that other world, and spend their lives adopting routines and behaviors that help them preserve a small part of it within themselves.

Who knows... I'm probably over-thinking it.

But here's a quote that I can attribute to someone which speaks to what you said JL- specifically this:

"As human beings, our greatness lies not so much in being able to remake the world...as in being able to remake ourselves."
Mahatma Gandhi

Gelisgesti asks if it "is it possible to have a belief in regard to the meaning of life without the entanglements of religion and it's obligatory 'deity', yet, something greater than the sum of yourself?"

I think dieties are obligatory only for the Abrahamic religious life. Buddhism and Hinduism, at their highest, most esoteric, levels have no gods, except occasionally as metaphors. I prefer a non-theistic this-worldly religiousity. And I consider my TRUE self (as well as yours) to actually be that SUM which is greater than my (and your) FALSE self (i.e., ego).

geligesti

The word religion stems from the latin word "religio", and as far as I can tell this word means "conscientousness". So the true meaning of the word isn't whatever creed one professes, but the act of revising one's moral values.

The irony is that religious people tend to be more reluctant to do this than those who claim no religion. In that sense, those who hold to their prescribed doctrines are less religious than those who don't.

I'm interested to hear Gel's personal take on what being 'born again' means.

Me, I don't think about it much and don't have much of an inclination to. It doesn't matter in the long run what specificially people interpret being 'born again' as - what matters that they are continuing to worship a 'god' that no longer makes sense in this world.

I am not 'against' religion in the strictest sense. I just think that at base, religion is a choice.
What god(s) or lack of gods you choose to worship, admire, or look to - even if it is merely your own inner wisdom - it is 'stupid' (my value judgement) if it doesn't make sense in the larger world.

Gotta balance the benefits of practicing a religion versus not. In real terms.
Beyond just self interests.

I still can't get over the fact that every religion without exception ultimately serves the wishes, needs, or desires of its followers.
At the silliest level - people form their gods according to what they want.
"I love my son, so therefore God must love my son. To kill him is good."
or
"I love the comfort of an otherworldly paradise after I die, so god must love this too, and have provided it for me."

The last thing I need is to be born again to my pure self interests. I would likely be a warmongler with a vengeful god.

I'm interested to hear Gel's personal take on what being 'born again' means.

Me, I don't think about it much and don't have much of an inclination to. It doesn't matter in the long run what specificially people interpret being 'born again' as - what matters that they are continuing to worship a 'god' that no longer makes sense in this world.

I am not 'against' religion in the strictest sense. I just think that at base, religion is a choice.
What god(s) or lack of gods you choose to worship, admire, or look to - even if it is merely your own inner wisdom - it is 'stupid' (my value judgement) if it doesn't make sense in the larger world.

Gotta balance the benefits of practicing a religion versus not. In real terms.
Beyond just self interests.

I still can't get over the fact that every religion without exception ultimately serves the wishes, needs, or desires of its followers.
At the silliest level - people form their gods according to what they want.
"I love my son, so therefore God must love my son. To kill him is good."
or
"I love the comfort of an otherworldly paradise after I die, so god must love this too, and have provided it for me."

The last thing I need is to be born again to my pure self interests. I would likely be a warmongler with a vengeful god.

I'm interested to hear Gel's personal take on what being 'born again' means.

Me, I don't think about it much and don't have much of an inclination to. It doesn't matter in the long run what specificially people interpret being 'born again' as - what matters that they are continuing to worship a 'god' that no longer makes sense in this world.

I am not 'against' religion in the strictest sense. I just think that at base, religion is a choice.
What god(s) or lack of gods you choose to worship, admire, or look to - even if it is merely your own inner wisdom - it is 'stupid' (my value judgement) if it doesn't make sense in the larger world.

Gotta balance the benefits of practicing a religion versus not. In real terms.
Beyond just self interests.

I still can't get over the fact that every religion without exception ultimately serves the wishes, needs, or desires of its followers.
At the silliest level - people form their gods according to what they want.
"I love my son, so therefore God must love my son. To kill him is good."
or
"I love the comfort of an otherworldly paradise after I die, so god must love this too, and have provided it for me."

The last thing I need is to be born again to my pure self interests. I would likely be a warmongler with a vengeful god.

I'm interested to hear Gel's personal take on what being 'born again' means.

Me, I don't think about it much and don't have much of an inclination to. It doesn't matter in the long run what specificially people interpret being 'born again' as - what matters that they are continuing to worship a 'god' that no longer makes sense in this world.

I am not 'against' religion in the strictest sense. I just think that at base, religion is a choice.
What god(s) or lack of gods you choose to worship, admire, or look to - even if it is merely your own inner wisdom - it is 'stupid' (my value judgement) if it doesn't make sense in the larger world.

Gotta balance the benefits of practicing a religion versus not. In real terms.
Beyond just self interests.

I still can't get over the fact that every religion without exception ultimately serves the wishes, needs, or desires of its followers.
At the silliest level - people form their gods according to what they want.
"I love my son, so therefore God must love my son. To kill him is good."
or
"I love the comfort of an otherworldly paradise after I die, so god must love this too, and have provided it for me."

The last thing I need is to be born again to my pure self interests. I would likely be a warmongler with a vengeful god.

wow flushd

You really mean that, since you say it four times :wink:


(I have noticed that even though my web browser sometimes "cannot display the page" when I submit a post, the post is usually submitted anyway. Hitting the submit button multiple times when the loading is slow also makes for multiple postings.)

Cryacuz, I frequently make redundant posts, but if I move fast enough (before my post is responded to) I manage to delete the extra ones.

By the way, I said once before that my understanding of the etymology of the term "religion" is that, in addition to "conscientous," it refers to that which RE-CONNECTS us to the world; the ligio part refers to the same root as contained in "ligament", that which connects our skeletal structure.
Another possible meaning of ligio is "tie" or "bind." This might suggest a religion's function of uniting to binding the members of an ideological community together.
I prefer the suggestion that religion--when it is what I consider true religion--re-connects us to the Cosmos, the ground of our being, the source of our true nature, etc.
In zen buddhism enlightenment does not "connect" you with the Cosmos; it is the realization that you have never been separate from it. Indeed, there is no distinct "you", only Cosmos (or God if you wish).

JL

The site where I found the origin of the word religion (dictionary.com) also explained the part about re-connecting and binding, and I had similar thought as those you present upon reading about it.

But as I see it, this is a basic instinct in every human being,- the search for our place in the world. Some do it by learning intricate doctrines, and some do it by chasing their dreams, to name two of many approaches.
Those that are blind to the re-connecting and binding attributes of religious systems of belief- very often due to all the abuse these systems suffer- still find their ways to live with themselves and the world.

This brings to mind a quote from a person whom I cannot remember the name of: True religion is the lives we lead, not the creeds we profess.


And what you say about zen buddhism is one of the main reasons that this approach appeals to me.

it means to be baptised in the blood of Christ Jesus and therefore to have all your sins forgiven and to have a new spiritual life, aka born again.

or it means finally coming off a hard drug or conqering an extreme alcohol habit.

or it means spiritual fulfillment, or getting closer to it. Not neccesarily baptised. That's just a formality.


But I a curious rockpie.
When you say such a thing as you said in the previous post, what do you actually mean? Am I to understand it literally?
I percieve you to be an intelligent young person, and so I suspect that you might be using a metaphor. If so, can you phrase it in a way that is more universally "edible"?

It's just that I've always wondered what christians mean when they say some of the things they say, because if I were to take them literally that would mean that I'd have to conclude that they were raving loons.


Undoubtedly, some are, but I think they are a minority. At least, I hope they are. :wink:

yes it was a metaphor. to be baptised in the blood of Christ is not necessarily a literal baptism with the submersion into water etc, it is a metaphorical term. when you are baptised in the blood of Christ your sins are washed away by his blood, making you clean and acceptable by God. not literal at all, just because he died and bled for mankind it seems a suitable metaphor to use.

It should symbolize discarding old attitudes, beliefs and values and learning a new truth, akin to an infant being born with a mind that is a blank slate. In practice, it usually means emotionally buying into someone else's version of fundamental Christianity lock, stock and barrel, without questioning its basic premises.


There is no mind for the first 24 weeks after conception (due to lack of synapse connections) but things the fetus/baby experiences after that can change the strength of neural connections and thus be written onto the brain. The infant does not have a completely blank slate since there are instinctive behaviors and abilities that are determined genetically, and brain development is affected by malnutrition, hormones, drugs and other environmental conditions, both before and after birth.

A thought occured to me. In order to be born again one must first die.
Following what Terry said, that it involves discarding old attitudes, beliefs and values, I'd say that part is the "dying". It is often slow and painful, since most of us shed our beliefs and assumptions rather reluctantly.

For my part, I consider the ongoing process of becoming more mindful a more beneficial aspect than any rebirth. I wish to shed old beliefs and assumptions. But I do not wish to replace them with new ones.



rockpie

What is it a metaphor to?

Interesting thoughts, Cryacuz. The mindfulness technique of meditation (I've heard it is the very one prescribed by the Buddha) is, as I see it, a form of "dying". By "discarding" old ideas and ideals for the period of the meditation at least one has a bit of the spiritual non-attachment of one who is dead-while-living (to be physically dead, of course, is another matter).
But, regarding your last sentence: while I describe my state of mind in meditation as one of profound and willed IGNORANCE, it is not quite like shedding beliefs and assumptions for good. It's just seeing them for what they are, provisional and artifactual "constructions," always undergoing change.

That is a good point JL.

To discard these "constructions" isn't really the goal, is it? It's as you say, about seing them for what they truly are. This may help us to utilize them more efficiently and correctly, to master them rather than be at their mercy.