I am not sure how your list of authors demonstrates your view of a "persuasive, even compelling, argument for an afterlife" given my view that "argument lacking evidence is weak when it comes to the speculative nature of the supernatural" but I guess it's time for an early supper!
Abid wrote:If there was proof of an afterlife, there wouldn't be much use for this test of how we use this life we have been given.
No point having an exam when you know what grade you got.
But hey, if you don't believe then im sure you will enjoy your lives.
But on your death beds... what will you be thinking about????
Maybe, the big bad beyond.....
But maybe you wont get time to think.
The proof of an afterlife wouldn't be the same as knowing the grade.
For example, I know that if I eat right and excercise, I will lose weight. However, I will not lose weight unless I do those things, so I still have to doe the work to get the result.
Another example, I know that if I work 40 hours this week, that I will get paid X number of dollars. Knowing that fact, doesn't mean that I will get X dollars without doing the work.
NOW, if I knew there was an afterlife, but I had to follow god's rules to get there, then I would still have to follow god's rules. Knowing that there is an afterlife is not a free pass to the afterlife. I would still have to 'study' to take the 'test'. I wouldn't know the grade, I would just know that there was the possiblilty of a grade.
There is no acceptable "proof" of an Christian or Muslim AFTERlife, but that is of no more concern to me than the lack of proof for a life BEFORE birth (as required in the Hindu notion of reincarnation).
maporsche wrote:Abid wrote:If there was proof of an afterlife, there wouldn't be much use for this test of how we use this life we have been given.
No point having an exam when you know what grade you got.
But hey, if you don't believe then im sure you will enjoy your lives.
But on your death beds... what will you be thinking about????
Maybe, the big bad beyond.....
But maybe you wont get time to think.
The proof of an afterlife wouldn't be the same as knowing the grade.
For example, I know that if I eat right and exercise, I will lose weight. However, I will not lose weight unless I do those things, so I still have to doe the work to get the result.
Another example, I know that if I work 40 hours this week, that I will get paid X number of dollars. Knowing that fact, doesn't mean that I will get X dollars without doing the work.
NOW, if I knew there was an afterlife, but I had to follow god's rules to get there, then I would still have to follow god's rules. Knowing that there is an afterlife is not a free pass to the afterlife. I would still have to 'study' to take the 'test'. I wouldn't know the grade, I would just know that there was the possiblilty of a grade.
Yes you are right that you would still need to act to get in. It was a bad example. My point was that there would be no point in this test of life if we knew for a fact that there was a consequence. Otherwise im sure we would all be model characters!!!
Abid wrote:maporsche wrote:Abid wrote:If there was proof of an afterlife, there wouldn't be much use for this test of how we use this life we have been given.
No point having an exam when you know what grade you got.
But hey, if you don't believe then im sure you will enjoy your lives.
But on your death beds... what will you be thinking about????
Maybe, the big bad beyond.....
But maybe you wont get time to think.
The proof of an afterlife wouldn't be the same as knowing the grade.
For example, I know that if I eat right and exercise, I will lose weight. However, I will not lose weight unless I do those things, so I still have to doe the work to get the result.
Another example, I know that if I work 40 hours this week, that I will get paid X number of dollars. Knowing that fact, doesn't mean that I will get X dollars without doing the work.
NOW, if I knew there was an afterlife, but I had to follow god's rules to get there, then I would still have to follow god's rules. Knowing that there is an afterlife is not a free pass to the afterlife. I would still have to 'study' to take the 'test'. I wouldn't know the grade, I would just know that there was the possiblilty of a grade.
Yes you are right that you would still need to act to get in. It was a bad example. My point was that there would be no point in this test of life if we knew for a fact that there was a consequence. Otherwise im sure we would all be model characters!!!
To be honest, I think that the only reason to 'take the test' so to speak is if there was proof that there was an afterlife or a consequence. Otherwise how would you know what test to take? How would you know what book to study? Hell, you don't even know what time the test starts or ends?
maporsche wrote:Abid wrote:maporsche wrote:Abid wrote:If there was proof of an afterlife, there wouldn't be much use for this test of how we use this life we have been given.
No point having an exam when you know what grade you got.
But hey, if you don't believe then im sure you will enjoy your lives.
But on your death beds... what will you be thinking about????
Maybe, the big bad beyond.....
But maybe you wont get time to think.
The proof of an afterlife wouldn't be the same as knowing the grade.
For example, I know that if I eat right and exercise, I will lose weight. However, I will not lose weight unless I do those things, so I still have to doe the work to get the result.
Another example, I know that if I work 40 hours this week, that I will get paid X number of dollars. Knowing that fact, doesn't mean that I will get X dollars without doing the work.
NOW, if I knew there was an afterlife, but I had to follow god's rules to get there, then I would still have to follow god's rules. Knowing that there is an afterlife is not a free pass to the afterlife. I would still have to 'study' to take the 'test'. I wouldn't know the grade, I would just know that there was the possiblilty of a grade.
Yes you are right that you would still need to act to get in. It was a bad example. My point was that there would be no point in this test of life if we knew for a fact that there was a consequence. Otherwise im sure we would all be model characters!!!
To be honest, I think that the only reason to 'take the test' so to speak is if there was proof that there was an afterlife or a consequence. Otherwise how would you know what test to take? How would you know what book to study? Hell, you don't even know what time the test starts or ends?
THe test started they day you were born.
The test finds those who are sincerley looking for the truth.
And Allah knows best
Abid, Allah is a figment of your imagination; it was placed there by family or friends - from their mental figment.
I agree with you CI and I have a question or two for you as well:
Do you appreciate the posters with a religious bias? If so, does it go beyond the extent that they allow you to have a canvas upon which to paint your perceptions?
Do you feel in any way you can alter any poster's perceptions of religiosity?
Chumly, All my siblings are christians married to christians. I've always been the black sheep of the family, and I married a buddhist. Our mother was very unhappy at our wedding, and she has not smiled even once during the reception - while she sat at the front table.
My siblings continue to tell me they pray for me, and also claim that we were "successful," because our mother always prayed for us.
Yes, I can appreciate the folks with a religious' bias, because most of my family and friends believe in christianity.
My sister took care of her husband when he suffered from Parkinsons and a heart attack. She prayed regularly for his good health, and believed he would one day recover. He passed away. My sister left the church for about one year, because she was angry, but have returned to church.
I have learned from my own family members, that they will not change from their religious beliefs. A belief foistered upon us from our mother when we were young; converting from buddhism to christianity. I have always believed that religion is an accident of birth; children usually follow the religion of their parents/community/country. Once it takes hold, most do not change.
As an atheist, I believe the life we have is all there is; nothing more, nothing less. We must make the best of what we have in terms of gene and environment; some of us are lucky enough to have been born or immigrated to a developed country where education and economic success are available.
I find this life to be fascinating with many opportunities to travel the world over any time in the past. With the development of jet travel and computers, we live in exciting times. I am fortunate to have friends all over this world.
cicerone imposter wrote:My sister took care of her husband when he suffered from Parkinsons and a heart attack. She prayed regularly for his good health, and believed he would one day recover. He passed away. My sister left the church for about one year, because she was angry, but have returned to church.
I am not trying to be trivial about your sister's loss, but I can guarentee you that at least someone in her congregation told her a variation of the following: "God did answer your prayers, but because he is wiser than you his answer was no."
I wonder if she uses that experience as a building block for her foundation of faith. Something along the lines of "I believe in god because he has answered my prayers, for example my passed away husband...."
You hear the opposite all the time: "I believe in god because he answered my prayers when my husband was sick and he got better. There was nothing I could do, it was in god's hands." I've heard something similar to this from a few posters on this board very recently.
CI,
not to be flippant and I thank you for your candor, but in light of maporsche's post some humor would not hurt:
If god answers your payers it's good.
If god does not answer your prayers it's good.
In either case then the outcome is good.
I guess the pop culture phrase "it's all good" must be true!
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=it's+all+good
maporsche, My sister doesn't need any "building block" to retain her faith. Her whole family could have been run over by a truck and killed, and she would still retain her belief in her religion.
As an atheist, I see that experience as "part of life." We don't choose the time we are born or the time we leave this world (most of us don't). Everything in-between is what we try to make it constrained by our genes and environment, and the effort we put into work and education.
Prayer has nothing to do with saving or improving lives. Natural disaster do not discriminate based on religious belief or non-belief.
Some of us are lucky enough to survive on this planet above the average lifespan. Those of us conscious about trying to live a healthy lifestyle try not to drink too much or make an effort to eat a balanced diet. Doesn't mean we won't get killed tomorrow by a car or train. Some people are sloppy with their diets, smoke alot, but live to be over 100 years old. That's just nature.
http://paranormal.about.com/library/blstories06.htm
What is the explanation of those paranormal stories there told by many different people? It's kind of scary.
I don't know.
Simple answer.
Some here will tell you that it's god doing these things. To them I say, why would god be concerned with making money dance across the room in mid-air? Why would god make a car drive down the road without a driver? Why would god keep hiding someone's toothbrush? etc....
Some people believe there may be a supernatural force which exists which is different from the god in the Bible. That's what I believe may exist. For example-if someone prays with great faith- their prayer might come true if they pray hard enough. My neighbor has told me this.
I just posted this statement on the new thread, "Should I fear death?". I think it applies here as well:
I believe that none of us will ever know (our) death.
All this after-life stuff amounts to fantasy (some imposed on us to control us and some self-imposed to deal with our fear of death). One minute, or less, after my demise I will never have existed; I'll be just as I was before my parents conceived me.
Notice the tyranny of grammar here: I say that "I" will be as "I" was before conception. There was no "I" to exist or not exist before-life--and the same applies to after-life.
We must free ourselves from this cognitive-linguistic trap.
prophecy dreams
What is the explanation of this?
http://members.aol.com/RVSNorton/Lincoln46.html
Who sent him that dream warning him about his death?
Who knows? But I wouldn't be surprised if this "lucid dream" were an expression of profound guilt (and punishment). Imagine sending young men and women off to die--no matter how just the cause.
Lincoln was known to be troubled from time to time by dreams - and to have mentioned that at various times. Lamon, purportedly the recounter of the tale, was a long-time-freind trusted confidant, and de facto bodyguard of Lincoln's, and the two had private conversattions as matter of course. Acording to the anecdote, Lincoln shared those thoughts with Lamon during a private moment.
Now, on the other hand, though Lamon published a couple books and several essays and articles pertaining to his experiences as Lincoln's bodyguard following the assassination, his literary efforts did not meet with success. While not destitute at the time of his 1893 death, he and his family certainly were not "Well Off" either. At the urging of a publisher, Lamon's daughter compiled Recollections of Abraham Lincoln 1847-1865 from published and unpublished material of her father's, styling the work his memoirs and assigning authorship credit to him - taking for herself the title of Editor, which brought with it a handsome manuscript fee and a comfortable income from the ongoing profits of what turned out to be a popular book for a good 20 years or more following its 1895 publication, re-issuing through several editions and a couple revisions. The book had promised (read: was hyped) delicious, previously unknown, fascinating details of Lincoln's private life, and to the public's satisfaction, it delivered on that promise.
Much of what is reported in the book is accorded high regard by most historians, some is given less regard, some is looked upon by the present-day schalarly community with some skepticism. Much in the book is validated by other memoirs, histories, diaries, news clippings, and the like, some in the book is at odds - to one extent or another - with external accounts of the same incidents. Only Lamon's supposed memoir contains the Assassination Dream Anecdote - no mention of it appears anywhere else over the 3 decades which intervened between Lincoln's death and the publication of Lamon's memoir, though much about Lincoln was published and snapped up by the public (Lamon's writings during his lifetime an exception).
All there is for evidence is what Lamon's daughter says Lamon said that Lincoln said to Lamon. Take that for what you will.
