0
   

Is there proof of the afterlife?

 
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Dec, 2006 03:13 am
The most interesting thing in Sheldrake's books or on his website either one are the animal stories and the most interesting of those on the website is the story of the little gray parrot Nkisi. For an idea of how bright African gray parrots are before you even get into questions like Nkisi evokes, check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1FQvU1yv0s
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Dec, 2006 03:37 am
Very entertaining !

(Perhaps not as interesting as birds "feigning injury" to protect their nests which Sheldrake may or may not cover)
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Dec, 2006 04:23 am
timberlandko wrote:
Strictly speaking, in objective, empirical, legitimate sense, no. There is neither proof of the existence of afterlife or of the soul nor is there disproof.

Persuasive, even compelling, argument may be made either way. However there exists no evidence - as the term "evidence is most precisely defined - but rather the issue, however approached, is surrounded by only conjecture, assumption, preference, prejudice, anecdote, and unsubstantiable claim.
You say "persuasive, even compelling, argument may be made either way" but in furtherance say "the issue, however approached, is surrounded by only conjecture, assumption, preference, prejudice, anecdote, and unsubstantiable claim".

Thus I ask the following:

1) Please demonstrate a "persuasive, even compelling, argument for an afterlife"; I for one have heard none.

2) From your two quotes above, you contradict yourself, why?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Dec, 2006 04:28 am
Quote:
The ?'Psychic Pet' Phenomenon: A reply to Rupert Sheldrake (note: 6 page .pdf download)

Richard Wiseman
Psychology Department
University of Hertfordshire

Matthew Smith
Psychology Department
Liverpool Hope University College

and

Julie Milton
Psychology Department
Edinburgh University


Rupert Sheldrake (1999a) has published a note in the previous issue of the Journal criticising our research into the ?'psychic pet' phenomenon. Certain points arising from this criticism have also been included in his recent book, Dogs That Know When Their Owners Are Coming Home and Other Unexplained Powers of Animals (Sheldrake 1999b). This paper outlines why we believe his criticisms to be invalid.

In his 1994 book ?'Seven Experiments That Could Change The World', Rupert Sheldrake (RS) urged the public to carry out experiments to help discover whether pets might be able to psychically determine when their owners are returning home. In April 1994, RS was contacted by Pam Smart (PS), who was interested in taking part in this research because she thought that her own dog, Jaytee, might possess such abilities. Between May 1994 and February 1995 RS and PS carried out an observational study of Jaytee in which PS's parents noted down the time that Jaytee seemed to indicate that PS was returning home (Sheldrake1999b).

In November 1994 the Science Unit of Austrian State Television carried out one of the first formal experiments with Jaytee. The experiment used two film crews. One crew followed PS as she walked around her local town. The second crew remained in her parents' house and continuously filmed Jaytee. After a few hours the crew accompanying PS decided to return home. At that moment Jaytee went to the porch and remained there until PS returned back. The experiment received considerable media attention (e.g., Matthews, 1995) and was shown on several popular British television programmes. RS was interviewed on many of these items and made positive comments about the results of the experiment.

Because the media were making strong claims for Jaytee's psychic abilities, the first author (RW) contacted RS in early 1995, and expressed an interest in his research. RS and PS kindly invited him to conduct his own investigations of Jaytee, and so the authors carried out four experiments between June 1995 and December 1995. Before conducting our first experiment we realised that, to avoid possible post hoc data selection, it was necessary to determine the criterion that would count as Jaytee's ?'signal' that PS was returning home. This was important because without such prespecification, all sorts of aspects of Jaytee's behaviour might be interpreted after the fact as a signal. Following conversations with PS we agreed that the criterion for our first experiment would be the first time that Jaytee went to the porch for no apparent reason.

In his recent commentary, RS criticised our use of this criterion and suggested that we should have plotted our data in such a way as to examine the overall pattern of time that Jaytee remained at the porch. However, our experiments set out to test the claim that Jaytee clearly signalled PS's journey home by going to her parents' porch for no apparent reason. Testing this claim did not require plotting our data and looking for a pattern, but instead simply involved determining whether Jaytee's ?'signal' matched the time that PS started to return home. This was the only claim that had been made about Jaytee's abilities at the time of our experiment. RS had yet to complete his own videotaped experiments with Jaytee (carried out between May 1995 and June 1996) and had not informed us that he would be looking for these patterns in his data.

Indeed, it is not clear whether his decision to look for such patterns had been made at the time that we were conducting our experiments. We therefore believe that the claim we tested, and the methods used to test that claim, are fully justified. During our first experiment Jaytee visited the porch 13 times. The first time that he went there for no apparent reason was over an hour before PS started to return home. After the experiment we reviewed our videotape of Jaytee with PS. She remarked that Jaytee only stayed at the porch for a fairly brief period of time during his ?'signal' and suggested that a better indicator might be when he remained there for a longer period of time. There were three occasions when Jaytee stayed at the porch for more than 2 minutes and two of these were close to the time that PS started to return home. As a result we agreed to alter our criterion for the next experiment, so that Jaytee's signal was considered to be the first time that he inexplicably visited the porch for more than 2 minutes.

During this second experiment Jaytee visited the porch 12 times. The first time that he visited the porch for no apparent reason, and stayed there for over two minutes, was almost twenty minutes before PS started to set off home. After this experiment PS noted that there were many summertime distractions nearby (e.g., the neighbour's bitch on heat) that may have been causing Jaytee to provide ?'noisy' data', and thus we agreed to postpone the next two experiments until the winter. We returned in December 1995 and carried out two more experiments using the same criterion. In both experiments Jaytee failed to accurately signal when PS was returning home.

In August 1996 we presented these experiments at the conference of the parapsychological Association (Wiseman and Smith, 1996). By this time RS had carried out his own videotaped experiments with Jaytee. In September 1996 he wrote to RW and noted that he had analysed his own results by plotting the total time that Jaytee remained at the porch during each ten minute period of the experiment. He claimed that his data showed that Jaytee waited by the porch significantly longer during the time period that PS was returning home, and that there was also an ?'anticipatory effect' whereby Jaytee also waited a large amount of time in the period immediately prior to PS's return journey. He also noted that, as reported in his recent commentary, he had re-analysed ourvideotapes of Jaytee and found the same pattern in our first three experiments.

We do not believe that RS's re-analysis of our data provides compelling evidence for the notion that Jaytee could psychically detect when PS was returning home.

First, it appears that RS's observed patterns could easily arise if Jaytee did very little for some time after PS left home and then began to visit the porch more often, and for longer periods, the longer she stayed away. This pattern of behaviour would make sense for a dog waiting for its owner's return and would result in Jaytee being at the window most often when PS is returning, as her journey home will always constitute the final time period in each experiment. It is therefore possible that the pattern that RS describes is not evidence of some inexplicable power of Jaytee to detect PS's return but an artefact of an easily explicable pattern in Jaytee's natural waiting behaviour.

Second, RS's analysis of our data was clearly post hoc and would not provide compelling evidence of psi ability unless it were supported by a larger body of research.

Third, at the time of submitting our paper to the British Journal of Psychology, it was not possible to properly assess the claim that RS had found the 'patterns' he described in his own data. RS had not then published the results of his own videotaped experiments. Indeed, these experiments have still not been published in a peer reviewed journal, and have instead only appeared very recently in RS's book (Sheldrake, 1999b). This book contains only brief descriptions of the experiments and does not contain many of the details needed for a proper assessment, such as whether RS's method of analyzing his own data was developed post hoc. Moreover, there appear to be design problems in the experiments that might tend to lead artefactually to the patterns in Jaytee's data observed by RS, as pointed out by Blackmore (1999).

In early 1997 RW sent RS a copy of the paper that we had submitted to the British Journal of Psychology. For the reasons given above, this paper did not refer to RS's re-analysis of our data, nor the data from his own experiments. The publication of our paper in late 1998 (Wiseman, Smith & Milton, 1998) generated considerable media interest. RS has complained that we misrepresented our findings to the media by stating that we did not believe that our experiments supported the notion that Jaytee possessed psychic abilities, and by not mentioning his re-analysis of our data. As noted above, we believe that our methods and results are valid, are not convinced by RS's arguments and are justified in communicating these opinions to journalists. We were, nevertheless, appalled at the way in which some of the newspaper items portrayed PS, and RW wrote to both RS and PS to express his dismay at the wording used by the journalists in these articles. However, we are not responsible for the way in which the media reported our paper and believe that these issues are best raised with the journalists involved.

Although we believe our account of our findings to the media was accurate, we feel that the description of our experiments in RS's book, Dogs That Know When Their Owners Are Coming Home and Other Unexplained Powers of Animals, is misleading. RS has presented the results of our work in the main text of this book. However, instead of stating that we had concluded that our experiments did not support the existence of Jaytee's claimed abilities, he described our data as follows:
The pattern was very similar to that in my own experiments, and confirmed that Jaytee anticipated Pam's arrival even when she was returning at a randomly chosen time in an unfamiliar vehicle. (Sheldrake, 1999b, p. 46).

RS only described our actual conclusions (i.e., that we believe that our experiments do not support claims about Jaytee's psychic abilities) in an endnote, published in a very small font, at the very back of the book (Footnote 1).

In short, we strongly disagree with the arguments presented in RS's commentary. We believe that our experiments were properly designed and that the results did not support the notion that Jaytee could psychically detect when PS was returning home. Moreover, we are not convinced otherwise by RS's reanalysis of our data and reserve judgment about his own experiments until they are published in a peer reviewed journal. We also believe that our comments to the media were responsible and accurate, and that the description of our experiments presented in RS's book is misleading.

References
Blackmore, S. (1999). If the truth is out there, we've not found it yet. The Times Higher Education Supplement, 27 August. 18.

Matthews, R. (1995). Psychic dog gives scientists a lead. The Sunday Telegraph, 15 January, 4.

The reX files. (1999). The Time Higher Education Supplement, 27 August, 18.

Sheldrake, R. (1994). Seven Experiments That Could Change The World. Fourth Estate Ltd: London.

Sheldrake, R. (1999a). Commentary on a paper by Wiseman, Smith and Milton on the psychic pet phenomenon, JSPR, 63 (857), 306-311.

Sheldrake, R. (1999b). Dogs That Know When Their Owners Are Coming Home and Other Unexplained Powers of Animals. Hutchinson: London.

Wiseman, R. & Smith, M.D. (1996). Can pets detect when their owners are returning home? An experimental test of the 'psychic' pet phenomenon. Proceedings of the 39th Parapsychological Association, Convention, USA, 35-44.

Wiseman, R., Smith, M., Milton, J. (1998). Can animals detect when their owners are returning home? An experimental test of the ?'psychic pet' phenomenon. British Journal of Psychology. 89, 453-462.


Footnote
1: It may appear from the endnote of RS's book that he has further criticism of our experiments in press with the British Journal of Psychology but, to the best of our knowledge, this is not the case. Although a paper containing criticisms is described in his book as being in press with the British Journal of Psychology, it is noted in The Times Higher Education Supplement that that paper was not accepted for publication (27 August 1999).

Acknowledgments
The authors would like to thank Emma Greening and Caroline Watt for their helpful comments on earlier drafts of this paper.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Dec, 2006 04:35 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
To find proof of an afterlife is an oxymoron. All one can do is believe or not believe in it.
Nope, you could (hypothetically) have someone return from the dead as proof.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Dec, 2006 05:15 am
Chumly wrote:
You say "persuasive, even compelling, argument may be made either way" but in furtherance say "the issue, however approached, is surrounded by only conjecture, assumption, preference, prejudice, anecdote, and unsubstantiable claim".

You misapprehend; persuasive and/or compelling argument does not entail valid, nor even convincing, argument. Hitler, for instance, was a persuasive, even compelling speaker, as was Marx. An argument may be at once well formed, powerful, persuasive, and compelling, yet all the same be invalid, unconvincing, and/or demonstrably incorrect - that's rhetoric for you - and theology ... and politics, too, for that matter.


Quote:
Thus I ask the following:

1) Please demonstrate a "persuasive, even compelling, argument for an afterlife"; I for one have heard none.

Tertullian, Justin Martyr, Augustine of Hippo, Peter Abelard, and Thomas Aquinas come immediately to mind, as do any number of others through time all the way through C. S. Lewis to Alvin Plantinga. All put their cases well.

Quote:
2) From your two quotes above, you contradict yourself, why?

No I don't; you form an erroneous impression.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Dec, 2006 06:07 am
Persuasive does not entail convincing Question
Quote:
persuasive
2. capable of convincing; "a persuasive argument"; "the evidence is persuasive but not conclusive"

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Persuasive
timberlandko wrote:
You misapprehend; persuasive and/or compelling argument does not entail valid, nor even convincing, argument. Hitler, for instance, was a persuasive, even compelling speaker, as was Marx. An argument may be at once well formed, powerful, persuasive, and compelling, yet all the same be invalid, unconvincing, and/or demonstrably incorrect - that's rhetoric for you - and theology ... and politics, too, for that matter.
Sure but by that token, virtually anything that has someone or some group in some fashion convinced could be argued as such, so where's the weight of your assertion?
timberlandko wrote:
Tertullian, Justin Martyr, Augustine of Hippo, Peter Abelard, and Thomas Aquinas come immediately to mind, as do any number of others through time all the way through C. S. Lewis to Alvin Plantinga. All put their cases well.
OK perhaps for others, but from what modest amount I have read, argument lacking evidence is weak when it comes to the speculative nature of the supernatural.
timberlandko wrote:
No I don't; you form an erroneous impression.
As of yet I have no clarification on why you are not in contradiction.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Dec, 2006 07:14 am
http://www.sheldrake.org/D&C/controversies/wiseman.html

Quote:

....Richard Wiseman started his career as a conjurer, and like Randi is a skilled illusionist. He is well known in Britain as a media Skeptic, and regularly appears on radio and TV programmes as a debunker of psychical phenomena. In addition, he tirelessly promotes the Skeptical cause through public lectures.

When my experiments with the dog Jaytee were first publicized in Britain in 1994, journalists sought out a skeptic to comment on them, and Richard Wiseman was an obvious choice. He put forward a number of points that I had already taken into account. But rather than argue academically, I suggested that he did some experiments with Jaytee himself, and arranged for him to do so. I had already been doing videotaped experiments with this dog for months, and I lent him my videocamera. Pam Smart, Jaytee's owner, and her family kindly agreed to help him.

With the help of his assistant, Matthew Smith, he did four experiments with Jaytee, two in June and two in December 1995, and in all of them Jaytee went to the window to wait for Pam when she was indeed on the way home. As in my own experiments, he sometimes went to the window at other times, for example to bark at passing cats, but he was at the window far more when Pam was on her way home than when she was not. In the three experiments Wiseman did in Pam's parents' flat, Jaytee was at the window an average of 4% of the time during the main period of Pam's absence, and 78% of the time when she was on the way home. This difference was statistically significant. When Wiseman's data were plotted on graphs, they showed essentially the same pattern as my own. In other words Wiseman replicated my own results......
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Dec, 2006 07:19 am
Raul-7 wrote:
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
No creator or God would allow something as glorious as me to disappear from existence after only 80 or 90 years.


What? Were you not a drop of sperm and God gave you life? This is easy for God and yet you're arrogant as ever. You're nothing more than a mortal, of which many of you came and passed away.

Natural disasters are nothing more than warnings Allah sends to mankind.

Do you feel secure against Him Who is in heaven causing the earth to swallow you up when suddenly it rocks from side to side? Or do you feel secure against Him Who is in heaven releasing against you a sudden squall of stones, so that you will know how true My warning was? Those before them also denied but then how great was My denial! (Surat al-Mulk: 16-18)


Raul 7 may I offer you a glass of warm milk and a valium? Perhaps an anti anxiety drug of some sort? Laughing
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Dec, 2006 11:53 am
Chumly wrote:

OK perhaps for others, but from what modest amount I have read, argument lacking evidence is weak when it comes to the speculative nature of the supernatural ...

Perhaps you should read more.

Read this, for instance:
Quote:
Persuasive does not entail convincing Question
Quote:
persuasive
2. capable of convincing; "a persuasive argument"; "the evidence is persuasive but not conclusive"


Let's try that one more time -
Quote:
Persuasive does not entail convincing Question
Quote:
persuasive
2. capable of convincing; "a persuasive argument"; "the evidence is persuasive but not conclusive"

There - does that help?


gunga, Sheldrake's attempt to challenge Dr. Wiseman's refereed, peer-reviewed, accrpted, and published criticism was rejected when submitted for peer review to the same journal, the British Journal of Psychology, in which Wiseman's paper appeared, and never has been accepted by, published, and/or endorsed in any legitimate journal or other credible publication; it appears nowhere but in Sheldrake's own apologetics and those of his followers. Dr. Wiseman, the Chair of Understanding of Psychology, University of Hertfordshire, 2002 recipient of the British Acadamy of Sciences Joseph Lister Award, Associate Fellow of and Lecturer to The Royal Academy, among many other prestigious awards and recognitions both scientific and academic, author, co-author, or collaborator of numerous relevant books, both general market and academic/scientific peer-reviewed and published texts, as well as score upon score of relevant peer-reviewed, accepted, and published articles, papers, studies, and treatises, all widely cited throughout the relevant legitimate writings, brings to the discussion a CV rather more substantial than does Sheldrake, who, all things considered, pretty well qualifies as a credentialed crackpot.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Dec, 2006 01:10 pm
Wiseman and the Lippards and Shermers of the world are sometimes called "professional skeptics". They'd have been standing there claiming to have debunked Christ at the cross if they'd been alive at the time. But the biggest problem with being a professional skeptic is that it requires being an expert at pretty much everything.

Here's one description of the problem:

http://www.phact.org/e/z/problem3.htm
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Dec, 2006 01:36 pm
timber and gungasnake,

With reference to "evidence for an afterlife" we need to focus on Sheldrake's specific involvement rather than his general reputation as "a scientist". This can be found here.

http://www.resurgence.org/resurgence/articles/fox.htm

It is clear from this that Sheldrake offers no "traditional evidence" for his views on the "field nature of soul" , however we cannot judge his contribution on empirical grounds alone because the nondualist stance he takes is percularly resistant to mainstream logic (see for example non-locality in quantum theory to which he alludes). Instead we might apply Occams razor which (in the hands of Capra op cit for example) leaves no requirement for a separate "animating principle" to account for "life". On the other hand we should not be quick to dismiss innovative thinkers such as Sheldrake as mere "crackpots" because it is they at least expand the nature and range of "observation" to pastures new. The alchemists of old didn't have mich of a meta-theory but some of their "data" provided the basis for modern chemistry.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Dec, 2006 02:55 pm
Quote:
... A claim of a pet psychic power, indeed the claim of human psychic power, could, in principle, be tested. Indeed, there have been hundreds of experimental tests of psychic power and yet there has never been repeatable experimental demonstration of the existence of these powers. The magician James Randi has for years offered a million dollar prize to anyone who could demonstrate psychic abilities. To date all claimants have failed.

The article also describes research by British parapsychologist Rupert Sheldrake supporting the existence of telepathic animals. Journalists are often poorly equipped to cover claims of scientific evidence for paranormal phenomena. They operate in a historical and scientific vacuum, unaware of the repeated failure to replicate these claims. Typically the initial claims of such powers get widely reported because they are interesting and appeal to the public's appetite for the unusual. When later attempts to replicate these findings fail, the results are ignored by the media. A case in point, National Geographic Kids reports Sheldrake's claim that a dog named Jaytee could psychically sense when its owner, Pam Smart, was returning. The magazine tells us:

"Sheldrake carried out experiments in which Jaytee was videotaped to see when he went to the window when Smart was out. Smart went at least five miles away and came back at randomly chosen times. She was signaled through a pager when she should return. The person doing the paging was neither with Smart nor in the house with Jaytee.

"Amazingly, Jaytee went to wait at the window when Smart started home after receiving her message. His reactions did not depend on hearing familiar car sounds from miles away, because he behaved the same way when she traveled by train, bicycle, or car. Jaytree is one perceptive pup!"

This is truly an amazing assertion and it has received considerable media attention. Unfortunately, the essential scientific question "have independent researchers been able to replicate this claim under controlled conditions?" is never asked. A simple literature search would have revealed that in 1998 the British Journal of Psychology published a paper by Wiseman, Smith, and Milton that reported on a carefully controlled attempt to test Sheldrake's claim about Jayee. The researchers concluded that "analysis of the data did not support the hypothesis that Jaytee could psychically detect when his owner was returning home."

This is a serious matter. At a time when the scientific community is raising the alarm over the public's poor grasp of science National Geographic Kids has decided to be part of the problem. The magazine is guilty of both scientific illiteracy and irresponsible journalism. Our kids deserve better.
SOURCE
(Emphasis mine)

To date there exists in the relevant legitimate scientific/academic literature neither independendent corroboration of Sheldrake's purported findings nor dispute pertaining to Wiseman's findings. Conversely, numerous similar and/or related studies, literally hundreds of them, published both prior to and following Sheldrake's self-published claims, have presented conclusions not merely at odds with those reported by Sheldrake, but diametrically contrary to same.

In sum, not only has Sheldrake's hypothesis not been accepted by the legitimate, mainstream scientific and academic communities though given consideration therefrom, that hypothesis therein has been rejected, without dissent, at length and in particular specific detail. Sheldrake and followers may - and vociferously do - reject such criticism and rejection; nonetheless it is observed they do so in manner and by means wholly consistent with the practices of crackpot, contrarian, minority POV proponents of pseudoscience the world over.

That which by all observed respects most closely resembles a duck ...
0 Replies
 
sunlover
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Dec, 2006 04:49 pm
Raul-7 wrote:


Then what happens when you die and find out that you've been living of a life of delusion, but in fact there is an afterlife - will you just accept your doomed fate? Why not prepare for this before death comes upon you and you will have no means of denial?


"Doomed fate?" None of us are doomed, especially we are not doomed because we don't know if there is an afterlife. Where did you get the idea we must know that, must not deny that? Our afterlife, should there be one, would depend on how we live, whether we have treated others the way in which we would have them treat us.

What sort of religion teaches this kind of fear? Does any, really? Isn't it just in interpretation?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Dec, 2006 05:37 pm
Some people are already brain-washed to the point that common sense and logic has been lost long ago.
0 Replies
 
Abid
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Dec, 2006 03:29 am
If there was proof of an afterlife, there wouldn't be much use for this test of how we use this life we have been given.

No point having an exam when you know what grade you got.

But hey, if you don't believe then im sure you will enjoy your lives.

But on your death beds... what will you be thinking about????

Maybe, the big bad beyond.....

But maybe you wont get time to think.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Dec, 2006 04:34 am
Quote:


http://www.petoftheday.com/talk/printthread.php?t=73156

Cat finds the way home from 'Glades

By Jaime Hernandez
Staff Writer
Posted February 26 2005

A Fort Lauderdale firefighter is facing theft charges after he told police that he snatched a neighborhood cat and dumped it in the Everglades because it scratched his truck.

The firefighter's 11-year-old neighbor, Maggie Leonard, was celebrating her birthday Feb. 5 when she realized her pet was gone. She started crying when she learned Cristopher Cortes, who has had a months-long spat with her family, got rid of Mr. Kibbles.

Luckily for Maggie, the cat showed up at her front door Feb. 18 -- apparently on his own.

"It was like a miracle," said Maggie's mother, Nancy Leonard. "Maggie loves this cat like royalty."

Coconut Creek police charged the firefighter, Christopher Cortes, 32, and his fiancee with petty theft and gave them notices to appear in court. Fort Lauderdale Fire-Rescue says it has opened an internal investigation, but Cortes is still on duty.

No one, except for Mr. Kibbles, knows how he got home, located in the 5900 block of Northwest 47th Way in Coconut Creek. He wasn't wearing ID tags.

Dr. Deborah Niedermiller, a veterinarian who examined the cat Monday, said he was in good health, tired, and "looked like he had traveled a little bit" because of his hardened paws.


To an animal the height of a cat, the horizen is about a hundred and fifty feet out much of the time. This is like you or I finding our way home on foot from Peru with no maps, charts, or yuppie devices, or even roads or road signs. The question for evolutionists is, how do capabilities like that "evolve"?

Maybe Timberlandko can give us some sort of a super blowhard explanation, all in red cap letters....
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Dec, 2006 10:07 am
Article doesn't really indicate distance. The cat was dumped in the swamp 15 miles from its home.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Dec, 2006 05:12 pm
timberlandko wrote:
Chumly wrote:

OK perhaps for others, but from what modest amount I have read, argument lacking evidence is weak when it comes to the speculative nature of the supernatural ...

Perhaps you should read more.

Read this, for instance:
Quote:
Persuasive does not entail convincing Question
Quote:
persuasive
2. capable of convincing; "a persuasive argument"; "the evidence is persuasive but not conclusive"


Let's try that one more time -
Quote:
Persuasive does not entail convincing Question
Quote:
persuasive
2. capable of convincing; "a persuasive argument"; "the evidence is persuasive but not conclusive"

There - does that help?


Nope because unfortunately you did not use the word "conclusive" in your initial set of definitions, thus my question stands.

While I appreciate your list of authors and I admit freely I have not read them all by any means, you have still not met your claims, nor my list of challenges. Not that you have to do any such thing, but I am curious!
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Dec, 2006 05:37 pm
Infer as you wish, Chumly; regardless what is written, that always is the readers' prerogative. An entire industry is built on that. Its called religion.

I submit that indeed I have "met my claims" and satisfied your "list of challenges".
0 Replies
 
 

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