WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO EDUCATION Since 1895 ?

2packs - here in England, they do pronounce the l in salmon. They actually say SAL-MON.
Sorry Aiden, but I don't think that I've ever heard a fellow Englishman pronounce the "L".
Sammon all the way! (you're correct with the "T" on fillet, though - pronounced fillit, the e being pronounced i, for some strange reason.)

They also say FIL-LET (pronouncing the t on the end of fillet). So when I moved here and asked for a "samon fillay" the man at the fish counter (though we both spoke English as our native language) had no idea what I meant. I had to point to what I wanted.

I don't know about the word solder.

Solder has a long "O", and we pronounce the "D". Sold - er.
I've only heard it pronounced a few times. I know they say it differently than I do - I say SOD-DER with a short o - and silent l as you said. I think they might say SOL-DER- pronouncing the o long, as well as the L. This might be because sodder (as I pronounce it) is a slang term for them- and something entirely different than solder as we think of it.
Sod is a slang word for us, used as either an insult or indeed, a strange term of affection among friends, as is bugger.
"You romantic sod! You romantic bugger!"
It is also used to indicate that something is proving to be difficult.
"That wheelnut was a sod to undo!"

Can't say I've ever heard the term "sodder", though.

Silent Letters

Q. Why is the letter -L- silent in words such as salmon and solder?

In those two cases, the English spelling originally did not have an -l-, so there was no such letter to pronounce. The fish was spelled samoun, and the fusible alloy was spelled soudur. In the 18th century, our friends the hypercorrectionists decided that these and other words should show their Latin origins. Salmo was Latin for the fish, and solidus was Latin for the joining agent, so doesn't it make perfect sense to graft an -l- into the English words? Not really. The spelling was forcibly changed, but the original pronunciation lived on.

The silent L is often followed by one of 4 letters:
D as in could, should, would, and solder; F as in behalf, calf and half;
K as in balk, caulk, chalk, stalk, talk, and walk;
and M as in balm, calm, embalm, napalm, palm, psalm, qualm, and salmon.

The 18th century meddlers threw in other letters as well as they gave a nod to classical origins. A vivid example is the word dette. It was efficiently phonetic, but they decided that since it came from the Latin debitum, it should have a "b" to acknowledge the origin: debt.
Doute was not allowed to stand since in Latin it was dubitum; so it became doubt. And the word subtle reflected the fact that in Latin it was subtilis, so the English sutill had to go.

http://verbmall.blogspot.com/2006/05/silent-letters.html

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Death to the silent L!

Ah! Zummerzet....that explains it, Aiden!

Whar them zoider apples grow.

Lord Ellpus wrote:

Ah! Zummerzet....that explains it, Aiden!

Whar them zoider apples grow.

Define " zoider " ??

OmSigDAVID wrote:

Lord Ellpus wrote:

Ah! Zummerzet....that explains it, Aiden!

Whar them zoider apples grow.

Define " zoider " ??

Now THAT is a classic example of the futility of phonetic spelling.

The word zoider is spelt EXACTLY how a person raised in the County of Somerset (UK) would pronounce it, yet you didn't have a clue what it meant.
Zoider is therefore phonetic, according to the man from Somerset.

If it was spelt in the standard way, both you AND the man from Somerset would immediately understand it.

cider

LE- My friends here in Somerset definitely pronounce the l in salmon. Because I've asked them about it when I've heard it. The UK, like America, and maybe even moreso than America, has so many different regional accents that it's hard to find a standard of pronunciation across the entire country.
* And actually, now that I think about it, I have relatives in America who pronounce salmon with the l, although I haven't heard it in a while, as those close to me usually pronounce it without it. I don't know which is right or wrong, I just know what I prefer to say myself.

*I just extrapolated that since there were sods, maybe there were sodders. But I get expressions wrong all the time. I had a student the other day ask me, "are you taking the piss out of me?"

Quote:

Setanta - I'm not advocating phonetic spelling- mostly because I think there could be no standard. Everyone, depending on where you live in the country, pronounces words differently. If we all spelled as we spoke, or pronounced words, it'd be very, very confusing.

Because of American domination
of global communications,
I believe that American English
will dominate the World.
We need a standard fonetic dictionary,
for universal use.

Quote:

My only purpose was to point out the fact that I think David's reason
for doing this is not that he can't spell conventionally - I think he can.

I did it for most of the 20th Century,
until I realized the error
of my complicity
in spelling the way that everyone else does,
thereby failing to tear down
the non-fonetic elements of the English paradime of spelling.

David

It is the Manifest Destiny
of American English to dominate the World,
because of our domination of world communications.
Let 's get the job done RIGHT.
David

"are you taking the piss out of me?"


I wonder what that question MEANS ?
David

Quote:

"are you taking the piss out of me?"


I wonder what that question MEANS ?
David

Quote:

He was asking me if I was trying to give him a hard time by making a joke at his expense.
So though my interpretation of "taking a piss on him" might have fit in one sense - the term "taking the piss out of", I now interpret to mean the deflation of someone's ego. *But ask LE just to make sure that's correct.

*I wasn't - I was being sincere, but we were obviously on a subject (though I wasn't aware of it) that he felt defensive about.

I can 't help but wonder
as to the conceptual origin
of that frase.

Was he accusing u of afflicting him
with so hi a degree of emotional stress
as to cause him to wet his pants ?

Quote:

In terms of this phonetic stuff though, after LE's contribution, I thought about a lot of differences in British and American English pronunciations.
Especially in words of French origin, Americans tend to pronounce them with the french pronunciation (fillet, garage, massage, etc.), with the
emphasis on the second syllable, while Brits place the emphasis on the
first syllable and shorten the initial A(in words such as massage), to a greater extent.


I was wondering if part of this is due to the antipathy the British feel toward the French, thus their reluctance to adopt French pronunciation? Any ideas?
If so, this would make any standard phonetic spelling difficult to arrive at
on an international basis.

Que sera, sera

It is held in some quarters
that it is the destiny of the World
to speak like Tom Brokaw.

I can live with that.

Cram rote into them at a young age, is what I say. They may not fully understand what it all means at that time, but they'll remember it all, sure enough, when they have cause to use it.
I include the multiplication of numbers in that line of thinking as well.

Quote:

Yes, "taking the piss" out of someone is basically ridiculing them,
or deflating their ego.
In some areas of the UK, the term "taking the rise"

How does that work,
conceptually ?
To WHAT rise is there reference ?

Quote:

is also used, in other areas it's "taking the mickey",

What is a mickey ?

Quote:

but it all boils down to the same thing.

Aiden, I think the Brits are as bad as the Americans for leaving letters out of words.
If you listen to some Londoners, they will use a glottal stop on the letter "t",
more often than not. Bottle = bo'-'le. The t changes into an almost silent pause,
and release of breath. It's hard to explain exactly how it sounds, really.

.......

Is that the Cockney accent ?

Lord Ellpus wrote:

Cram rote into them at a young age, is what I say. They may not fully understand what it all means at that time, but they'll remember it all, sure enough, when they have cause to use it.
I include the multiplication of numbers in that line of thinking as well.

Quote:

Yes, "taking the piss" out of someone is basically ridiculing them,
or deflating their ego..[/color]
In some areas of the UK, the term "taking the rise"

How does that work,
conceptually ?.
I was once told that it was all to do with stopping someone in "mid flow", metaphorically speaking.

To WHAT rise is there reference ? [/b]
I assume that it is the same as the aforementioned deflation. You just stop them from rising, or getting all puffed up (I think).

Quote:

is also used, in other areas it's "taking the mickey",

What is a mickey ?
I really don't know, to be honest. I'll try to find out.

Quote:

but it all boils down to the same thing.

Aiden, I think the Brits are as bad as the Americans for leaving letters out of words.
If you listen to some Londoners, they will use a glottal stop on the letter "t",
more often than not. Bottle = bo'-'le. The t changes into an almost silent pause,
and release of breath. It's hard to explain exactly how it sounds, really.

.......

Is that the Cockney accent ?

Not just strictly Cockney, but certainly it's a thing that happens in London and the south East of England, maybe elsewhere as well.