FOLLOWING THE EUROPEAN UNION

Quote:

French opposition to EU constitution hits new high
Jon Henley in Paris
Saturday April 23, 2005
The Guardian

French voters' opposition to the EU constitution rose to a record high yesterday, amid mounting concern in Brussels that an apparently inevitable French non will torpedo the treaty before it is launched.
"It is very clear that the European commission is worried by the turn the statistics are taking," an EU spokeswoman, Françoise Le Bail, told reporters in Brussels. "We very much hope that these figures will change."

A poll for the free newspaper Metro by MarketTools research group yesterday showed 62% of people who have decided how to vote will reject the treaty in France's May 29 referendum, four points up from the previous 58% high in a survey by the BVA agency released on Thursday.
European leaders and EU officials also expressed their concern at the consequences of a French no vote, because the constitution needs to be ratified by all 25 member states to come into force.

Luxembourg's prime minister, Jean-Claude Juncker, whose country holds the EU presidency until the end of June, said Europe would continue to develop if France voted no to the constitution.

"But we would lose two decades, during which certain parts of the world would move ahead by adopting Europe's model, while others would catch up with us," Mr Juncker told the French Roman Catholic newspaper La Croix. It was unrealistic to think, as some of the treaty's opponents suggest, that the constitution could be renegotiated, he added.

In Amsterdam, the EU trade commissioner, Peter Mandelson, said that if France voted no, "Europe will not fall apart. At best it would stagnate. At worst, we would see some form of chaos".

Yesterday's French poll showed that the no vote, which last September was down at 31%, has now gained more than 10 points in barely four weeks since it first nudged into the lead on March 18 - a momentum that many commentators and analysts are describing as unstoppable.

The MarketTools poll contrasts with one by the CSA group on Thursday that showed that support for a yes vote, while still below 50%, had jumped by four points over the past fortnight. But there can be little doubt about the overall trend: 22 successive polls have suggested French voters will reject the constitution.

The latest poll also represents a major setback to President Jacques Chirac, whose first, widely-derided foray into the campaign in a TV debate with young people last week has apparently failed to halt the advance of the no camp.

For a majority of French voters, the referendum presents a risk-free opportunity to punish the government for a string of deeply unpopular social and economic reforms. Many in France are also firmly convinced that the constitution enshrines a market-dominated vision of Europe which they do not share.

Source

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OK what do you call the collection of EU member states Prime Ministers acting together? I know they have a role and a collective title.

The fact is the EU is indeed adopting many of the artifacts of a "state", with courts and ministers overseeing economic policy, the operations of U.S. companies in Europe, and possibly the creation of its own relations with other countries and international bodies. While members of the EU may find it comfortable to preserve the illusion of parallel national sovereignty and a sovereign EU, the other nations of the world may not see it the same as you. If the EU develops its own foreign policy and insists on recognition etc. as well as the right to regulate trade, then the issues of direct relations and multiple votes in international bodies will surely arise.

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The European Union has no sovereignty of its own. It has none of the inherent jurisdiction of a sovereign state. It is a treaty-based organisation with the 25 sovereign Member States.

The proceedings of the European Court of Justice are principally for judicial review of action or inaction by Member States or Community institutions.

And now - Embarrassed

- you certainly weren't referring to the 'Council of Europe' but to the EU Council (shame on me!)
Of course, you were coreect:
the Council is the main decision-making body of the European Union!
Together with the Parliament it shares the legislative function of the EU.

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I forgot to mention the Foreign Affairs.

Since the EU has lots of bilateral and multilateral agreements covering most countries and regions of the globe, I do believe that its important to have one voice on foreign affairs ... relating all member countries.

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That's part of the reason so many people in the states, and likely elsewhere, are poo-pooing the ascendancy of the EU to global power.

We don't think they can speak with one voice.

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If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck ....

You have described some of the legislativ3e, executive and judicial functions of the EU. and have even included some of its diplomatic relations. And yet you insist it is not a state and will not become one.

OK by me as long as the United States of America gets 50 votes in the WTC and the UN, etc.

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georgeob1 wrote:

OK by me as long as the United States of America gets 50 votes in the WTC and the UN, etc.

Okay for me - when all the 50 states get their (full) sovereignity (back).

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Okay for me - when all the 50 states get their (full) sovereignity (back).

Officially, it was never taken away from them. It's just that one morning, a few of them woke up, decided it was a good idea to excercise their souvereignity and secede, only to find it wasn't possible anymore. Their souvereignity was gone, inofficially but definitely and forever. I fear that a similar scenario will unfold in the EU. Yes, the constitution does not officially terminate the souvereignity of the countries in the EU. Yes, it even allows countries to secede. Still, the loss of souvereignity is a slippery slope, and the constitution would put us right onto it. I agree with the Prodi quote you cited, about Europe (as a state) being dead if France votes "no". I hope France will vote "no" for that very same reason. And I am fairly miffed that the German people never got a vote in this. I would expect a vote by the people to yield quite a different result than the sheepish, uncritical "yes" that captures almost our entire political class.

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Thomas wrote:

And I am fairly miffed that the German people never got a vote in this. I would expect a vote by the people to yield quite a different result than the sheepish, uncritical "yes" that captures almost our entire political class.

Well, I could agree here as well: I'm often, too, tired of our parliament, and may be, we really should be governed by vox populi.

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Thomas wrote:

Officially, it was never taken away from them.

Sorry, I didn't know that.

[I obviously misunderstood the US concept of 'state rights' vs. the international concept of 'state sovereignty':

Quote:

Under the federal system established by the Constitution, the States retain a "residuary and inviolable sovereignty." The Federalist No. 39, p. 245. They are not relegated to the role of mere provinces or political corporations, but retain the dignity, though not the full authority, of sovereignty.

source: ALDEN et al. v. MAINE, (98-436) 527 U.S. 706 (1999) 715 A. 2d 172, affirmed. (Supreme Court Collection via LII)

I should have re-read instead making a blindfold remark Embarrassed

]

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Thomas wrote:
Officially, it was never taken away from them.

Sorry, I didn't know that.

[I obviously misunderstood the US concept of 'state rights' vs. the international concept of 'state sovereignty'.]

Well, to be more precise, it appears to have been a contentious issue of constitutional interpretation among legal scholars between the ratification of the constitution and the Civil War. One school of scholarly commentators on the US constitution interpreted it as a compact of souvereign states; another school interpreted the same constitution as the states surrendering their souvereignity to the new, unified souvereign state called "the United States of America". This question was never officially decided, so it became a matter of interpretation. Not surprisingly, today's "states rights" advocates owe a lot to the former tradition, but its a separate issue. Nobody today argues that California could be a souvereign state -- even though I know some people in Missouri who would very much like it to be.

Today though, court decisions will mostly cite sources in the latter tradition. That's because that tradition won, and because history, including legal history, is written by the winners.

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The US Constitution created a Federal Government with specific, enumerated powers, and reserved all others to the States and the people. There is no mention of the question of secession, and until the Civil war it was generally understood that states could seceed at will. Indeed the New England states made numerous such threats during the decades that preceded the Civil War.

Since then our Courts and the Federal government have stretched its powers well beyond the limits forseen by the Founding Fathers. Both political parties do this more or less equally. This may well be a good illustration of the 'slippery slope' to which Thomas refers.

There is another aspect to this question as it affects Europe. Namely that the consent of other nations will be required in many circumstances if it chooses to put forward the illusion that both the EU and the states that make it up must be considered as sovereign entities in international bodies and nation-to-nation relationships.

The friction between the US and Europe has already begun with respect to NATO, which has already shrunk in its importance to most of its major members, prominently including the US. The stakes will be just as high over commercial and trade relations. If EU bodies can regulate the actions if US corporations in Europe, then American interest in the sovereignty of (say) Germany will be much diminished as a direct result.

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I might be totally wrong as proved here often, and even more simple-minded as you all suspect, but I still believe what is written in the constitution, and that it brings together the many treaties and agreements on which the EU is based.

It might well be, too, that my experience of life is just smaller than yours.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

I might be totally wrong as proved here often,

Never mind -- it happens to me all the time too.

Walter Hinteler wrote:

I still believe what is written in the constitution, and that it brings together the many treaties and agreements on which the EU is based.

It might well be, too, that my experience of life is just smaller than yours.

No, we're actually just more cynical about the internal dynamics of government. Doesn't mean that we're right, or that we have more experience.

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Thomas wrote:

No, we're actually just more cynical

That might well be - cynism is indeed unknown to me (You will notice this the forthcoming weekend 'live' :wink: )

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Walter,

You are not at all simple-minded. You are, however, very stubborn. (a trait shared by other luminaries on these threads as well)

Perhaps Thomas is a bit cynical. In my case what you see is the result of seasoned experience and right thinking. Cool

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georgeob1 wrote:

In my case what you see is the result of seasoned experience and right thinking.

I seem to have forgotten, what my parents taught me as a child: honour always the old-aged, how difficult it may be, and how obscure they may act. Sorry :wink:

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Good one! I'll admit to being difficult, but never obscure.

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georgeob1 wrote:

I'll admit to being difficult, but never obscure.

Actually, I didn't want to get the proof online and immediately. But thanks anyway Laughing

No, honestly, for a conservative and under the naval airforce's shadow .... it could be worse than it is now. Laughing

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Walter, how about the new french poll, showing the "yes" to European Constitution growing?

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