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FOLLOWING THE EUROPEAN UNION

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Wed 2 Feb, 2005 02:32 pm
Well, George, I really think - and I can compare 'public' opinion (which doesn' only mean "pub opinion"!) in the UK selectively over 40 years now:

like at my first visit in England in 1963, I still think today that most Britons inherited the original sin of being an isolated islander.
And they are proud of it.
(This was even [nearly completely] confirmed by a friend, who was formerly chair of the Labour Party's 'Movement for Europe' and member of the the "Select Committee on European Scrutiny" in the Commons, now a Minister and Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs.)
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 2 Feb, 2005 03:21 pm
Francis, Besides what this administration has opined, what makes you think Americans are anti-European?
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Francis
 
  1  
Wed 2 Feb, 2005 03:45 pm
CI, there's an enormous gap between "me" and what people (vox populi) think.

People's opinion are a little drived by government to think americans are anti-European.

All commercial conflicts with USA, and the subsequently retaliations, are viewed here as a result of anti-European American policy.

As a result, each government uses this so-called anti-European policy to elude it's own difficulties.

I have been in numerous countries in the world, including US, I believe I know a lot about crowd manipulating, so my opinion is in no way a reflect of a country's state of mind.

As you have seen before, I'm not very much interested in defending one point or another but, time to time, if my interlocutor seems reasonable, I can expose my point and ear the counterpart.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Wed 2 Feb, 2005 04:31 pm
Francis wrote:
Seen from here, people believe there is an anti-European American policy..



Interesting. I also note your equally interesting comments in the subsequent post.

I suspect that, to some extent, there truly is an anti European policy in some quarters of our government. What formerly was mere preoccupation with self and indifference to others has, to some extent and in some quarters, become a comfortable, self justifying hostility.

In terms of public attitudes I am inclined to suspect that both Europeans and Americans find it easier and more satisfying to focus on the defects each sees and the differences between us, now that there is no longer something more dreadful on the distant horizon for both sides.

A very interesting observation about the behavior of governments vis a vis their own publics, and their willingness to blame others for their own failings. I can think of examples of this on both sides of the Atlantic.

The one issue that does disturb me is, - that in a world beset by the challenges of nuclear proliferation; the evident and continuing distemper in the former Ottoman Empire and other former European colonies in the Moslem world; and the poverty, disease and political incompetence that confronts Africa, - the European powers have apparently decided that an unchallenged United States is their chief problem. I believe this disturbs many thinking Americans as well, particularly in view of the history of the 20th century.
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HofT
 
  1  
Wed 2 Feb, 2005 04:44 pm
Nah! Of COURSE the European governments will cite the US as the main foreign policy problem!

Politics being the art of the possible you can't expect anyone on either side of the pond to say that the Congo, for instance, was better run under the Belgians, or that black Africans have been getting slaughtered by their lighter-skinned northern African cousins in the Darfur region for a thousand years at least.
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HofT
 
  1  
Wed 2 Feb, 2005 04:57 pm
Walter - as and when you read this (given your time zone) I hope to have feedback from you on the original text I'm trying to translate.

I will be out of this forum for firewall reasons as I said, but - you know I'm a mathematician by trade! - to me an "elegant" expression matters: it's fundamental in mathematics.

You also know I have the original Vom Kriege edition from an uncle who fought on the Eastern Front - I'm very careful with the book, and do concentrate on using other editions as available - but one fact I would like to mention here before disappearing sine die is that von Moltke - some of whose letters were also bequeathed to me, though they were subsequently donated to a Stiftung - did go to military cadet school in Copenhagen originally.

Europe isn't a bloc divided by national lines, or linguistic lines. And it will only do well if it follows Bismarck's advice in throwing Russia's massive weight against the Ottoman bloc. Thanks, goodbye <G>
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Wed 2 Feb, 2005 04:59 pm
I'm not sure that I follow the connection between your points, Hellen. The assumed judgement by the European powers certainly does not appear foreordained to me.

While the constraints of political correctitude certainly do limit the utterances of both sides in all this, I do note that America has taken the trouble to fault and even to try to change a long-standing and worsening situation in the Moslem world. While the Eastern Congo in particular may have been a better place under the Belgians, and Zimbabwe under the British, and Haiti under the French (mostly because things are so bad in these places now) I doubt that the general proposition is true.
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HofT
 
  1  
Wed 2 Feb, 2005 05:11 pm
...3rd in line for takeoff...

Yes, G OB, we are agreed that the US has done a very great deal. The only additional point I was making was that having e.g. Portugal return to colonial rule of the eastern Indonesian provinces in order to stop slaughter of aborigines - an offer actively supported by the UN, State Dept, EU, and the aborigines in question - makes no sense, and Portugal was wise to decline.

The vilification of the US relies on no demonstrable facts, but is politically convenient as there's nobody else left standing right now.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Thu 3 Feb, 2005 10:05 am
Changing the subject to another quite popular European theme:

Quote:
03.02.2005
Organic food products: MEPs' appetites are still unsatisfied

Organic food production and organic farming need more encouragement. This Thursday, Parliament's Agriculture Committee adopted, unopposed with one abstention, the report by Marie-Hélène AUBERT (Greens/EFA, FR) on the European action plan in this field.

In the EU-15, the total surface area given over to organic farming rose from 0.1% to 3.3% between 1985 and 2002. In total, organic food production accounts for an estimated turnover of €11bn in the EU and €23bn worldwide. Since 1992, the EU has supported organic farming in the context of agri-environmental policy. MEPs welcome the Commission's recognition, in its new action plan, of the important role of this type of farming in the context of achieving the objectives of the new CAP. They note, however, that the Commission does not find it necessary to provide human or financial resources from the Union budget.

MEPs stress that more needs to be done: organic farming, they believe, makes a major contribution to the polyvalent role of European agriculture, as well as reducing pollution, protecting biodiversity and farmland and, not least, creating jobs.

The three priorities under the plan are:

to develop a market in organic food products based on information and enhanced consumer awareness;
to increase the effectiveness of state aid at national level to organic farming;
to improve and strengthen the Community rules on organic farming and the import and inspection requirements.

MEPs insist on the need to encourage state aid to organic farming and to the industries linked to organic food production, with quality systems being promoted. They regret the Commission's failure to present concrete proposals on sectoral organisation, and call for support (especially financial) for the organisation of production and for processing and marketing. They endorse the idea of promoting organic food products in catering, starting with public institutions and schools.

They also ask the Commission what line it intends to take on coexistence between GMOs and organic crops. They consider that in cases of contamination the financial responsibility must lie entirely with those who market GMOs illegally, and certainly not with the agricultural sector as a whole. They deplore the failure of the action plan to contain any concrete measures to promote research, and propose that the EU's framework programme for research should prioritise organic farming and the coexistence of organic crops with conventional crops and GMOs.

On GMOs, MEPs want the same rules to apply to Community products and imports. In the same line of thinking, they suggest that the production and marketing of organic foods should be taken into account in development aid and the promotion of fair trade practices.
Source
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Thu 3 Feb, 2005 02:51 pm
In case anyone doubted that all of this was a scam to contuinue subsidies to an otherwise uneconomic agricultural establishment....
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nimh
 
  1  
Thu 3 Feb, 2005 03:06 pm
Actually, organic food is getting to be pretty big now, relatively speaking I mean ... its no longer just a health- or enviro-food store thing, the main supermarket chain now stocks a range of organic products.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Fri 4 Feb, 2005 08:19 am
That's true here too, and organic food production is a growing fraction of our output.

However we operate a MUCH freer market for agricultural products than does Europe. The Europeans have repeatedly used their opposition to GM foods, and now this, to protect their own agricultural interests and, perhaps more importantly, the interests of a very active political constituency among their electorates.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Fri 4 Feb, 2005 10:25 am
georgeob1 wrote:
The Europeans have repeatedly used their opposition to GM foods, and now this, to protect their own agricultural interests and, perhaps more importantly, the interests of a very active political constituency among their electorates.


If I'm not deadly wrong, more than 80% of the German population are against GM-food - no supermarket would really try (now) to introduce them.
(Funny aside: in the UK, they are advertising 'gen-free' agricultural products Laughing )

I don't think, you can put this opinion -kind of- aside as a result of a very active political constituency among electotates".
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Fri 4 Feb, 2005 11:09 am
Walter,

I don't doubt for a minute that the opposition is popular. Instead I am suggesting that it is absurd in view of the fact that virtually all of the foods Europeawn s eat are ultimately from hybrid plants. Apparently they object only to the means and efficiency of the process used to modify their genetic character.

It is also a fact that this is one of several issues used by European governments to suppress free trade in agricultural products, and to bring on some serious suffering in parts of Africa as a result.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Fri 4 Feb, 2005 11:18 am
Well, I have a different opinion.

Free trade in agricultural products - yes, that's what you like, isn't it?

Hmmh, do you know by any change, how much e.g. raw milk cheese is imported by the USA? (You know, this genuine stuff, like Camembert, Brie, Appenzeller, Emmentaler, Parmigiano-Reggiano .... :wink: )
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Fri 4 Feb, 2005 11:52 am
Yes, I do like free trade. I also like very much certain imported European cheeses (particularly the French Bleu cheeses, which are much better than ours). We import lots of them. (We don't call them cheese-eating surrender monkeys for nothing.)

Our wines are better though.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Fri 4 Feb, 2005 11:57 am
georgeob1 wrote:


Our wines are better though.


Yes, if someone likes such :wink:
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nimh
 
  1  
Sat 5 Feb, 2005 08:02 pm
Real raw milk cheese is forbidden in America isnt it? Wasnt there a thread about that here once?
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nimh
 
  1  
Sat 5 Feb, 2005 08:06 pm
I was thinking of this thread, by Cav: Michael Schmidt, raw-milk renegade. Original post was about Canada tho - dont remember if America came up in the subsequent three pages.

Really interesting thread that was, about such an unexpected specialty topic. I cant imagine living on pasteurised cheeses, missing out on the real kinds of the cheeses Walter mentioned ... (then again I'm a bit of a cheese freak)
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Sun 6 Feb, 2005 12:39 am
nimh wrote:
Real raw milk cheese is forbidden in America isnt it? Wasnt there a thread about that here once?


One can make it for his own consumption, but it can't be sold.

The rule is based on public health considerations, however, I don't know the European rules or just what adverse effects they have - or don't have.
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