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FOLLOWING THE EUROPEAN UNION

 
 
McTag
 
  1  
Sun 6 Feb, 2005 12:55 am
georgeob1 wrote:
Walter,

I don't doubt for a minute that the opposition is popular. Instead I am suggesting that it is absurd in view of the fact that virtually all of the foods Europeawn s eat are ultimately from hybrid plants. Apparently they object only to the means and efficiency of the process used to modify their genetic character.

It is also a fact that this is one of several issues used by European governments to suppress free trade in agricultural products, and to bring on some serious suffering in parts of Africa as a result.


I think this is wrong.

Hybridisation of plants by traditional methods is not the same as altering the genetic structure of plants, to make them more pesticide-resistant and so forth.

I also think that the opposition to GM crops in Europe comes not from government but from the people- can I say "grass roots" here? As a matter of fact, government-sponsored trials of GM crops have been routinely vandalised here, with a fair amount of popular support.

The fear seem to be, and I don't know whether this is well-founded or not, that the genetic modification might spread uncontrollably to other plants.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sun 6 Feb, 2005 01:40 am
georgeob1 wrote:
nimh wrote:
Real raw milk cheese is forbidden in America isnt it? Wasnt there a thread about that here once?


One can make it for his own consumption, but it can't be sold.


Hmmh, just a couple of responses before, you wrote, George:

georgeob1 wrote:
We import lots of them. (We don't call them cheese-eating surrender monkeys for nothing.)
Question
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McTag
 
  1  
Sun 6 Feb, 2005 03:51 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Hmmh, just a couple of responses before, you wrote, George:

georgeob1 wrote:
We import lots of them. (We don't call them cheese-eating surrender monkeys for nothing.)
Question


This phrase, which was widely adopted as a comical insult to the French, was first uttered by a character in "The Simpsons", a popular cartoon series. This was round about the time they re-named chips (french fries) as "freedom fries", and started talking about cutting French imports to the US, because President Chirac would not go along with a US-led unprovoked assault on another sovereign country.

They don't mean it really, because they many of them know that they have got the French to thank for the very existence of the country in which they live.

Smile
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Sun 6 Feb, 2005 08:24 am
My comment about "cheese eating …" was meant in a lighthearted way. (I have never seen the TV show to which you referred}. U.S. attitudes toward France have been building for many years, from her ill-conceived attempts to take back her colonies after WWII to her withdrawal from NATO's military structure at a particularly dangerous moment in the Cold War, and many other actions that have defined the peculiar ambitions of that country in opposition to ours. It isn't just about Iraq.

The American Revolution would have succeeded with or without the French. They certainly provided the decisive help in defeating Cornwallis' army at Yorktown. However he had retreated to that location to seek resupply and seaborne withdrawal after a campaign in the Carolinas, which exhausted and severely depleted his army and ended with a recent stunning defeat at the hands of the Americans under Nathanial Greene at the Battle of Cowpens. He was already beaten.

The French also loaned us a good deal of money. However the colonists had other resources they could as easily have used. All this was done by France, not out of any affection for us or our revolution (unless you think that Louis XVI was a secret democrat), but rather as a part of their continuing struggle with England which began in earnest over 40 years earlier in the Seven Year's War. To them we were but a cheap proxy in their fight with the British. We owed very little to the French - and have repaid it many times over.
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McTag
 
  1  
Sun 6 Feb, 2005 10:44 am
The Simpsons TV cartoon show is very good, and it is very popular over here.

My remarks were fairly lighthearted too, and as you may know I regard the Revolutionary war as a victory for British ideals and stout independent British colonialists against a foreign king and his mercenary army. LaFayette, he helped us. Smile
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Sun 6 Feb, 2005 11:46 am
Glad to hear it. Could it be that Britain is again coming under the influence of Foreign kings and losing its pragmatic, common sense, and occasionally its bearings, in a rapidly changing world, still populated with continental avarice and ambition ? Smile
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sun 6 Feb, 2005 02:22 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
Smile


For the first time, George, that I notice an emoticon within your response Shocked
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McTag
 
  1  
Sun 6 Feb, 2005 02:24 pm
It's possible. We must try to keep our avarice and ambition in check.

"The meek shall inherit the earth (if that's all right with everybody else)"
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Sun 6 Feb, 2005 02:29 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
georgeob1 wrote:
Smile


For the first time, George, that I notice an emoticon within your response Shocked


It's true Walter. I just got a new laptop. For some reason on the otherone everytime I tried touse onr the program would freeze. Now I can convey all the emotional reactions you guys elicit in me.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sun 6 Feb, 2005 02:33 pm
So I really should have followed my inner voice and congartulated you at first instead to the new latop.

Which is herewith done.

(Included the small wish that you perhaps don't start using in one response all the emoticons you could have used the time before :wink: )
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Sun 6 Feb, 2005 03:31 pm
What's past is forgotten. I'm Irish (parents born there) and I react to things with a certain intensity. However, I can't stay angry for long - even at McTag. With Walter it in impossible to get angry -- frustrated and impatient perhaps, but never angry.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sun 6 Feb, 2005 03:52 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
However, I can't stay angry for long - even at McTag. With Walter it in impossible to get angry -- frustrated and impatient perhaps, but never angry.


Since we (McTag and I) will be together conspiring for a couple of days this week again, that soon might change Laughing
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Sun 6 Feb, 2005 07:48 pm
Well I hope the two of you have a great time together. Lift a glass for me. I'm in Jupiter Florida this week with sons, daughters and their progeny (all under 3 years) having a wonderful time. Life is very good. (As I recall there is a very expressive German word for that.)
Very Happy
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 6 Feb, 2005 07:50 pm
Walter and McTag, Just as long as your conspiring doesn't start another war. LOL
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Thomas
 
  1  
Tue 8 Feb, 2005 03:55 am
The Daily Telegraph has a disturbing article about how the recent legalization of prostitution in Germany combines with our government's recent tough line on unemployment benefits to wreak havoc. What makes it especially disturbing for me is that I approved of both reforms when they were introduced. Guess I have some thinking to do.

The Daily Telegraph wrote:
'If you don't take a job as a prostitute, we can stop your benefits'
By Clare Chapman
(Filed: 30/01/2005)

A 25-year-old waitress who turned down a job providing "sexual services'' at a brothel in Berlin faces possible cuts to her unemployment benefit under laws introduced this year.

Prostitution was legalised in Germany just over two years ago and brothel owners - who must pay tax and employee health insurance - were granted access to official databases of jobseekers.

The waitress, an unemployed information technology professional, had said that she was willing to work in a bar at night and had worked in a cafe.

She received a letter from the job centre telling her that an employer was interested in her "profile'' and that she should ring them. Only on doing so did the woman, who has not been identified for legal reasons, realise that she was calling a brothel.

Under Germany's welfare reforms, any woman under 55 who has been out of work for more than a year can be forced to take an available job - including in the sex industry - or lose her unemployment benefit. Last month German unemployment rose for the 11th consecutive month to 4.5 million, taking the number out of work to its highest since reunification in 1990.

The government had considered making brothels an exception on moral grounds, but decided that it would be too difficult to distinguish them from bars. As a result, job centres must treat employers looking for a prostitute in the same way as those looking for a dental nurse.

When the waitress looked into suing the job centre, she found out that it had not broken the law. Job centres that refuse to penalise people who turn down a job by cutting their benefits face legal action from the potential employer.

"There is now nothing in the law to stop women from being sent into the sex industry," said Merchthild Garweg, a lawyer from Hamburg who specialises in such cases. "The new regulations say that working in the sex industry is not immoral any more, and so jobs cannot be turned down without a risk to benefits."

Miss Garweg said that women who had worked in call centres had been offered jobs on telephone sex lines. At one job centre in the city of Gotha, a 23-year-old woman was told that she had to attend an interview as a "nude model", and should report back on the meeting. Employers in the sex industry can also advertise in job centres, a move that came into force this month. A job centre that refuses to accept the advertisement can be sued.

Tatiana Ulyanova, who owns a brothel in central Berlin, has been searching the online database of her local job centre for recruits.

"Why shouldn't I look for employees through the job centre when I pay my taxes just like anybody else?" said Miss Ulyanova.

Ulrich Kueperkoch wanted to open a brothel in Goerlitz, in former East Germany, but his local job centre withdrew his advertisement for 12 prostitutes, saying it would be impossible to find them.

Mr Kueperkoch said that he was confident of demand for a brothel in the area and planned to take a claim for compensation to the highest court. Prostitution was legalised in Germany in 2002 because the government believed that this would help to combat trafficking in women and cut links to organised crime.

Miss Garweg believes that pressure on job centres to meet employment targets will soon result in them using their powers to cut the benefits of women who refuse jobs providing sexual services.

"They are already prepared to push women into jobs related to sexual services, but which don't count as prostitution,'' she said.

"Now that prostitution is no longer considered by the law to be immoral, there is really nothing but the goodwill of the job centres to stop them from pushing women into jobs they don't want to do."

Source
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nimh
 
  1  
Tue 8 Feb, 2005 04:35 am
Hm. Interesting conundrum, Thomas. Still, it is the Daily Telegraph.

Not saying that the law doesnt need to be amended to close this weird possibility off, but the article - especially the headline - suggests that people are already being forced to take a job as a prostitute or penalised for refusing to; but if you read the text closely, this doesnt actually appear to ever have happened yet. There's just a lot of scandalizing speculation about how it, you know, could happen any time now:

Quote:
A 25-year-old waitress who turned down a job providing "sexual services'' at a brothel in Berlin faces possible cuts to her unemployment benefit under laws introduced this year. [..]

Job centres that refuse to penalise people who turn down a job by cutting their benefits face legal action from the potential employer.

"There is now nothing in the law to stop women from being sent into the sex industry," said Merchthild Garweg, a lawyer from Hamburg who specialises in such cases. [..]

Miss Garweg believes that pressure on job centres to meet employment targets will soon result in them using their powers to cut the benefits of women who refuse jobs providing sexual services. [..]

"Now that prostitution is no longer considered by the law to be immoral, there is really nothing but the goodwill of the job centres to stop them from pushing women into jobs they don't want to do."

Again - the article makes clear that theoretically, the job centres could penalise job-seekers for refusing to take such a job; even that formally speaking, they would actually have to; but it doesnt actually seem to be happening yet. Guess common sense does win out usually.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Tue 8 Feb, 2005 06:33 am
nimh wrote:
Still, it is the Daily Telegraph.
[...]
Guess common sense does win out usually.


You are correct - with both :wink:


There had been a thread about Thomas' quote some time ago, already, and it had been discussed on various threads (and I discussed this offline with a couple of persons as well :wink: )

The Good Life in Europe
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Thomas
 
  1  
Tue 8 Feb, 2005 07:05 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
nimh wrote:
Still, it is the Daily Telegraph.
[...]
Guess common sense does win out usually.


You are correct - with both :wink:


Thanks for the link, Walter. I haven't been around much lately, so missed the earlier discussions of the story. After reading through the other thread, I think the major point I missed is this. The letter of the law may well require women to accept a prostitute job if the unemployment agency orders them to, but it won't so. Doing that would constitute procurement, which is a felony under the German penal code, paragraph 181a. (Those of you who cannot read German will find the Babelfish translation funny as always, but it should give the right idea.) So nimh is right, and common sense does prevail.

All of this information is by courtesy of Walter, but it's my mess, so I thought I'd clean it up myself.

Edit: the Babelfish translation doesn't seem to work because tge A2K software truncates long URLs. You should be able to see the page by copying and pasting the following URL into your browser's address window.

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?url=http%3A%2F%2Flawww.de%2FLibrary%2Fstgb%2F181a.htm&lp=de_en
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Thomas
 
  1  
Thu 10 Feb, 2005 04:26 am
Thomas wrote:
The letter of the law may well require women to accept a prostitute job if the unemployment agency orders them to, but it won't so. Doing that would constitute procurement, which is a felony under the German penal code.

On second thought, maybe it wouldn't be procurement after all. Let's go through my (possibly icompetent) translation of the paragraph. My reading of it is added in slanted type.

Quote:
§181a Procuration

(1) A prison sentence of six months to five years shall be imposed on whoever

1. Exploits another person engaging in prostitution.

This one would depend on the precise definition of "exploits". But to this layman, it doesn't seem to apply to the job agency. T.

2. monitors a person engaging in prostitution, decrees place, time and other circumstances of the prostitution for pecuniary advantage, or takes measures intended to prevent the person from abandoning prostitution, and, to this end, engages in relations to the person on a scope exceeding the individual case.

Probably doesn't apply. Even in the worst case scenario, job agencies won't micromanage how people do the jobs they've been offered. In particular, the agency won't micromanage prostitutes, and won't discourage them from seeking another line of work. A sufficiently generous reading may cover the job agency though. T.

(2) A prison sentence of up to three years or a fine shall be imposed on whoever assists professionaly the prostituting of another person by mediating sexual intercourse, and, to this end, engages in relations to the person on a scope exceeding the individual case.

Definitely doesn't apply. T.

(3) Punishments according to paragraphs (1) and (2) shall also be imposed on those who perform on their spouse the actions mentioned in paragraphs (1) and (2) or the assistance mentioned in paragraph (2).

Definitely doesn't apply. T.

I expect nimh is right. For all we know, it hasn't actually happened yet, and common sense will eventually prevail. But it's still a close shave -- much too close for my comfort.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Sun 13 Feb, 2005 03:25 pm
Any comments.
Quote:

Anti-Muslim sentiment drives revival
ANTWERP, Belgium Filip Dewinter, a boyish man in a dark blue suit, bounds up two flights of steep stairs in his party's 19th-century building, where posters show a Muslim minaret rising menacingly above the gothic steeple of the city's cathedral..
"The radical Muslims are organizing themselves in Europe," he declared. "Other political parties, they are very worried about the Muslim votes and say 'Let's be tolerant,' while we are saying - the new political forces in Europe are saying - 'No, we should defend our identity."'.
From Austria's Freedom Party to France's National Front to Germany's National Democratic Party, Europe's far right has made a comeback in recent years largely on the strength of anti-immigration feelings sharpened to a fear of Islam. .
That fear is fed by threats of terror, rising crime rates among Muslim youth and mounting cultural clashes with the Continent's growing Islamic communities..
But nowhere has the right's revival been as swift or as strong as in Belgium's Dutch-speaking region of Flanders, where support for Dewinter's Vlaams Belang, or Flemish Interest, has surged from 10 percent of the electorate in 1999 to nearly a quarter today. .
Vlaams Belang is now Flanders's strongest party with support from a third of the voters in Antwerp, the region's largest city. Many people worry that the appeal of anti-Islamic politics will continue to spread as Europe's Muslim population grows..
"What they all have in common is that they use the issue of immigration and Islam to motivate and mobilize frustrated people," said Marco Martiniello, a political scientist at the University of Liège in the French-speaking part of Belgium. "In Flanders, all attempts to counter the march of the Vlaams Belang have had no results, or limited results, and no one really knows what to do.".
Fear of Islam's transforming presence is so strong, many members of Antwerp's sizable Jewish community now support Dewinter's party, even though its founders included men who sympathized and collaborated with the Nazis during World War II..
Many of those supporters are Jews who feel threatened by a new wave of anti-Semitism emanating from Europe's growing Muslim communities. .
The friction is felt acutely in central Antwerp, where the traditional Jewish quarter abuts the newer Muslim neighborhood of Borgerhout. .
There, Hassidic diamond traders cross paths daily with Muslim youths, for many of whom conservative Islam has become an ideology of rebellion against the perceived oppression of the non-Muslim world..
Israeli-Palestinian violence produces a dangerous echo here: anti-Israeli marches have featured the burning in effigy of Hassidic Jews and last June a Jewish teenager was critically wounded in a knife attack by a group of Muslim youth..
"Their values are not the right values," said Henri Rosenberg, a Talmudic scholar, attorney and orthodox Jew, speaking of the Muslim community. .
Although he is the son of Polish concentration camp survivors and his four grandparents died in camps during the war, he campaigned on behalf of the Vlaams Belang, formerly named Vlaams Blok, in regional elections last year..
As the right rallies beneath an anti-Muslim banner, European Muslims themselves have become increasingly politically engaged. The community is far too divided along religious, racial and national lines to present a unified political force, so most of Europe's Muslim politicians have allied themselves with socialists or other left-leaning parties..
But radical Muslims are also getting involved and, in many ways, they are helping to validate the fears that keep parties like the Vlaams Belang alive..
Behind the wooden door of a brick Brussels townhouse, Jean-François Bastin, a 61-year-old Belgian convert to Islam, holds court before a steady stream of Islamic activists. His fledgling Young Muslims Party is one of the new groups aggressively pursuing pro-Muslim agendas in Europe..
He calls Osama bin Laden "a modern Robin Hood," and the World Trade Center attacks "a poetic act" and "a pure abstraction." .
His 23-year-old son is in jail in Turkey on charges that he was involved in the November 2003 bombings in Istanbul that killed 61 people..
But Bastin argues that his son's troubles are evidence that Muslim youth feel politically excluded in Europe. He says political engagement is an antidote to militancy..
"There is deviance because people don't find their place here," he said, a long, hennaed beard falling over the front of his Arab-style tunic..
"If we deny that political voice that can judge and determine what is good for Muslims, from the point of view of their religion and their citizenship, their children are going to look for adventures elsewhere.".
Bastin, who converted to Islam in 1972 after a spiritual quest led him to Morocco, dismisses the far-right's fears of an Islamization of Europe, even if he does dream of an Islamic theocracy governing the Continent someday..
"Were not talking about Shariah now," he said, referring to the Islamic law that fundamentalist Muslims believe should be the foundation of society. .
"Were talking about Belgian Muslims being recognized on the same footing as other confessions and ideologies.".
In many ways, radical Islamists like Bastin are holding Europe's broader, moderate Muslim population hostage, attracting media attention disproportionate to their numbers..
"You have, in the current context, people who feel legitimized being anti-Muslim," said Martiniello, the political scientist. He cited a case in which a Belgian man had received death threats for employing a woman who wore a Muslim head scarf..
Many of the extreme right's supporters see Islam's growing European presence as the latest, most powerful surge of a Muslim tide that has ebbed and flowed since the religion first spread to the Continent. They warn that lax immigration policies, demographic trends and a strong Muslim agenda will forever alter Europe..
The Continent's Muslim population, now 20 million strong, grew from a postwar labor shortage that was filled with imported workers from North Africa and Turkey. By the 1980s, economic malaise and rising unemployment had created tension between the largely Muslim immigrants and the surrounding societies. But family reunion policies, which granted visas to family members of immigrants already in Europe, fueled another, more sustained wave of immigration that continues today..
"We were very naive," said Dewinter of the liberal policies. He called tolerance Europe's Achilles' heel and immigration Islam's Trojan horse..
The trend is even more distressing to the far right when considering the low birthrate of Europe's traditional populations and the likelihood that more workers will need to be imported in the coming decades to broaden the tax bases of the Continent's aging societies..
Already, about 4,000 to 5,000 Flemish residents are leaving Antwerp every year, while 5,000 to 6,000 non-European immigrants arrive annually in the city, Dewinter said. .
Within 10 years, he predicts, people of non-European backgrounds will account for more than one-third of Antwerp's population..
"It's growing very, very fast," Dewinter said. "Maybe that will be the end of Europe."
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