FOLLOWING THE EUROPEAN UNION

Thanks for that article Walter. It was interesting reading it.

God, I hope Turkey doesn't get in.

australia

You haven't expressed WHY you hope that.

I am of the opinion that an inclusive EU, which binds Europe to the Islamic world, is a positive thing. To keep all those who are not like ourselves outside the union is to create barriers which will alienate Moslems everywhere.

I am fed up with all things Islamic being equated with terrorism - we should consider Islam as a religion which preaches love and respect - only a very few of its followers take the "fundamentalist" line which "the West" fears.

Lets get this in perspective - and understand why they may be upset by the behaviour of "the West" towards others with whom they identify.

KP

I believe this is a particularly complex matter that is becoming even more complicated as we discuss it.

Turkey appears to be backing away from the secularist reforms instituted by Ataturk eighty years ago. The Moslem countries have failed to develop democratic governments - theocracy and secular authoritarian rule prevails. Turkey remains the exception to this rule, but it may become a close thing as the Islamist fervor grows. .

It is not at all clear to me that Europe will choose to admit Turkey. There is substantial opposition in Germany and Central Europe, and this may grow under the stress of events.

Islam has enjoyed periods of cultural and religious tolerance in its history. However they are the exception, not the rule. It well may be that Moslems will assimilate willingly within European culture, but there is little evidence to date to support this notion.

The accelerating demographic decline of European population may well make the views Pete has expressed a practical necessity.

Well. Will the EU invite Israel for membership?

I realize the EU has made a provision in their membership, which seems to buffer Israeli qualifications (no on-going border disputes)--but I think if Israel tries hard enough, they can prove at times, some EU members with what can be described as 'border disputes'.

I'd like to see the EU faced with a qualified Israel, making application. I think their true colors toward Israel would be crystal clear.

Very interesting point, Lash.

Where did all those Israelis come from?

Why did they leave?

Whose fault is that?

Where did the Palestinians come from?

Why were they forced off their own land?

Whose fault is that?


OK - no laughing matter, but don't think that one side has all the answers.

Israel is already in the Eurovision Song Contest.

Just a matter of time, say I.

But, it will certainly raise some problems in the international currency markets. I mean, Israel linked to the Euro and being supported by the Dollar US.

I don't think anyone suggests one side has all the answers. I do suggest, though, that one side gets an overwhelming percentage of the grief and hatred in Europe.

Wasn't it the UN who returned them? How are they to blame for being thrown out of their home, chased and murdered all around the world, and returned to their home? You know, becoming more acquainted with Europe's ancient history with Jews; they never really had a chance with Europeans. All they have to do is exist to be hated.

No wonder Bush has an affinity for them-- Bush is blamed for hurricanes and 911--the Jews were blamed for the Black Death and famine. During the Spanish Inquisition, they are forced to 'convert' and when they do, they are accused of 'not meaning it' and murdered or thrown out of the country--(until it is realized they are the best doctors and businessmen, the most useful, productive citizens--so allowances are made...)

I wish the Israelis would just give all the disputed territories to the Palestinians--just so we could see how the EU handles their application.
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From a 2003 UPI article on Israel's steps toward EU membership--

For the EU, Israel's impressive high-tech industry could be useful, but any economic advantages to Israeli membership would have to be balanced against the wider political costs to the EU, unless the Jewish state's relationship with its Arab neighbors is transformed. Even then, those European countries like France that already sneer at Britain as "America's Trojan horse" (and the German media that sneers at Poland as "America's Trojan donkey") might hesitate before admitting another such pro-American member.
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Odd. The EU discriminates against countries that have a positive relationship with the US? So, does it mean the formation of the EU as a rival to the US is now out in the open?

Really, I guess it's rival status became apparent when Chirac threatened the Eastern European's membership because they signed a letter of support toward the US re the war.

....So. Would that signify a "Cold War" of sorts?

<For those who read too much that isn't there--I don't know anyone who would welcome such a thing--but isn't it implied?>

Can you effectively limit an 'economic' war from developing tentacles of more dislike, one upmanship, and desires for violence, or dominance by any means?

Freaky, too. Israel is an oasis of intelligence and ingenuity again. But, any economical, technological advantages would have to be weighed with how much they are hated...

Lash

"An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth", eh?

Very enlightened!

I do not deny that there has been intolerance shown towards the Jewish population in Europe over centuries. This was most evident under the Third Reich but also in many other places at other times.

This is no longer the case. Being opposed to an expansionist Israel is not the same as being anti-semitic.

Aren't Muslims in danger of being subjected to a similar opression as a result of equally misplaced fear and lack of understanding?

As well as much intellectual and creative strength in Israel, there is a belligerent element which seek "purity" of national composition in a way which is uncannily reminiscent of the same oppression which Israel was created for the Jewish people to escape.

On your other point - what's wrong with trying to unite the similar states of Europe in an alliance which may disagree with (and have the strength to oppose) the USA? That's just sensible, when confronted with a single superpower.

Since most German media are online, could you please give me one single (only one would already please me!) for this?

I'm not aware about the legal and political value of that mentioned UPI, lash, because I couldn't find the source and thus not read the context.

However, I'm aware of the EU relation with Israel.

Thank you, Walter...well found.

The EU relationship with Israel explains the difficulties of trying to establish relations with Muslim countries. I'm sure the EU has complained about human right's violations against Israel during the past ten years in the way their "security" removes freedoms for the Palestinians. Building new settlements and walls to restrict and remove Palenstinians has created more than 'walls' between the Israelis and Palestinians. Many Muslim countries are watching what happens in Israel; most Muslims are not happy with the US support of Israel. Many dynamics are at work, and solutions will be difficult. The same thing goes for inclusion of other Muslim countries into the EU.

I really don't think that religion is the predominating theme why some countries get a member-status or not or are on the list of "could be members".

re EU <> Israel:

the EU embassy in Israel has some more info on their website:

The European Commission's Delegation to Israel

Walter, I don't think it is essentially religious' based either, but Muslim countries and it's peoples equate their own situation with the Palestinians and react thusly.

Good grief, Walter. You quoted the article, not me.

Take it up with UPI.

KP--Don't understand how you think the eye for an eye adage fits my comments. I didn't advocate against anyone. And, I almost have to laugh--but I don't--at the tired old dodge about anti-Semitism not being the same as anti-Israeli policy. I think everyone well knows the difference. I'm talking about the hatred of Jews for the sake of hating Jews. Trash Israeli policy all you want.

And--I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to build an alliance to wrest power from the US. It's well within the rights of any and all nations. I've just had a few conversations here and elsewhere, wherein people say this isn't the EU's goal. Just highlighting that it is.

<and, I think it's going to cause world-changing problems and tensions, and escalations> But, there's no avoiding it.

Sorry, didn't notice that.

OK.

I believe this statement encapsulates one of the great tragedies of the early 21st century.

Following the collapse of the Soviet Empire and the end of the Cold War the world encounters both new salient challenges and new opportunities. The challenges come from just a few key issues

Nuclear proliferation at the hands of authoritian states

The growing distemper within a Moslem world that has awakened to its political and economic backwardness, and become polarized between a authoritarian secular rulers and radical theocracies.

Poverty and the lack of political and infrastructure development in Africa.

The tragedy is that Europe and the United States have been unable to find a common strategy for dealing with these salient issues. Worse, Europe has concluded that a United States, unchallenged by an equivalent rival represents a worse and more immediate problem than any of those above.

This is a sad triumph of pride and envy over common sense and opportunity. I fear this choice will determine the central direction of the 21st century, just as did the folly of WWI determine the direction of the 20th century.