Whiteness Studies

I think it is time that the human race be genetically altered;
we need to strengthen the gene for "colour blindness"!
(not to mention the gene for "listening without bias")

I guess what we need is "sensible senses"!

I consider myself color blind in anything that pertains to race. That is why I oppose both racial discrimination and race-based affirmative action.

I took a chance when I expressed that I thought this thread might get dicey. I risked offending some people who assume I was talking about them, or setting up a discussion with a 'lose/lose' as the only possible outcome. The thing is, I honestly feel that having an ongoing, honest dialogue between those who self-identify as "white", and those who do not, is a hard thing to attain in this country in any circumstance, so no one here should take it personally that I felt it would be difficult here, also. I'll consider what you say about my sort of self-fulfilling negativity, but Setanta, please consider that in any circumstance- between family members, best of friends, around tables of statesmen and politicians, in classrooms, any circumstance - I believe that there would be the risk of ruffling feathers if I'd brought up this "whiteness studies" class. If, by saying it in a flip sort of way - "batten down the hatches", and what not, I appeared to sell the members of this forum short - let me say that I have held, and still hold the ideas and communication skills of the people of this forum above any in my memory I have experienced. The thoughts expressed in this thread by you are an example of that, as are those of several others. Please try to overlook what may have been a clumsy way on my part to introduce the subject, in favor of seeing that my intentions, at bottom are to stimulate a meaningful exchange.

There now, that ought to do it;
now to lwer the level, considerably (say down around the politically "wrong" height);
Isn't it funny that in the American south where the racial tension over skin colour is at its most contentious, the white members of society spend as much time on the beach as possible trying to aproach "black"!

Not funny "ha ha", but funny "Hmmmmm..."

Also funny - The adoption of things considered "black" culture by white youth - talk, song, dance...

It's not really "funny", it's "human";
well...........
yes that IS funny!

I don't think blaming it all on the south holds anymore. 1. My friend from Mississippi tells me how when he was a child back there he and every other black person in the vicinity had to turn out the lights at night and hide inside their own homes, lest prowling bands of whites attack them. He tells me that now when he goes back for visits the people he meets generally smile and are as good as anywhere else he goes. 2. When I lived in Brooklyn I heard as much racial hate talk as in any deep south town. I watched a guy jump up and crow when news was announced of MLK's death. The populations have been very mobile, as well as economic conditions changing, over the last twenty and thirty years. Race relations is, in short, everybody's problem, no matter where they live.

Eddie B :wink: ended his last post with the following sentence:

[quote]Race relations is, in short, everybody's problem, no matter where they live.[/quote]

Right on, my brother :wink:

(((((((applause)))))))

The applause is respectfully submitted.

Thanks, snood, for the topic.

I've spoken about my personal experiences in other threads so let me just summarize them (so you can get a sense of where I'm coming from).

I grew up in a small East Texas town well-known for its active white supremicist element (so prominent that it enjoyed several days of feature reporting on CNN a few years ago).

When I was 15, 16 maybe, I went "ridin'" (euphemism for underage drinking) with some friends who wound us up at a Klan rally. Complete with hoods, capes, burning cross, firebrand speakers, and most peculiarly to me, cakes, cookies, and other baked goods for sale. As appalling as it was to me at that early age to witness the public display of bigotry, what I was impacted the most by was the 'social' nature of the rednecks' little get-together.

When I got to college there was a brouhaha that erupted in my fraternity when several black members--mine was a professional fraternity so the 'brothers' were both men and women--took offense at some of the 'porch monkey' comments made in writing by some of the old guard. There was a trial; three of the bigots were expelled.

While in college I met and married a woman of Cuban birth and Turkish descent--dark, curly hair, dark eyes, deep olive complexion which darkens quickly upon time spent in the sun--who is occasionally asked if she is black.

Never has she been asked that by a black person, BTW.

Did I forget to mention I'm white? As in pale pink Caucasian? Narrow nose, thin lips? WASNP (N stands for 'non')?

My great aunt, the matriarch of our family, held a doctorate in English and taught for nearly 40 years at Loyola University in Chicago.

To the end of her life she still referred to the LVN's assisting her as 'the nigra girls'.

OK, enough about me...

Bigotry, IMHO, has a good bit to do with ignorance but a great deal more to do with fear.

Overcoming, or at least managing, fear is most effectively dealt with by facing (confronting) what a person finds--or assigns--fearful.

But most people aren't interested in challenging themselves.

I'd like to think that I have more sensitivity to what's going in the world than the average white guy, but I can tell you that every day I am reminded that things are a lot easier for me based on the absence of pigmentation (sidebar: the road is softened considerably for those who aren't white depending on how much money you have, and it's most certainly a lot easier if you're born male, but exploring that would require a few other threads).

The younger generations are getting more enlightened about what it will take to keep from repeating the mistakes of the forebearers, thanks to things like whiteness studies, IMO.

But we obviously still have a long way to go.

In order to make progress, you have to keep steppin'.

(Now if you'll excuse me, it's time to put on my shoes.)

Snood, forgive me if i misjudged you. It was rather mean-spirited of me to have assumed less of you, as i aought to have known better.

Snood said--

I have "breached" it, and will again- exactly when and exactly how I want to. - and I was answering SC's post,Sofia. Your first post in this thread was to challenge me to answer my own opening post. and then we went through the "no, you tell your opinion first" thing. Now you're commenting on my answer to another poster about why the posts haven't seemed to come up to what she wanted. I sense control issues.

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You sense wrong. I was following the natural progression of comments by you and sweet about the seeming lack of deeper conversation about racial issues. You and she seem to think some members are unwilling to discuss certain things, and I was attempting to let you both know I was game for any aspect of the issue, if you or she so desired.

These forums allow for members to respond to all comments, and question members' reasoning; hence the terms debate and discussion. I was interested in what subjects either of you wanted to speak of.

Still am.

Sofia, I had the same thoughts, and asked to open it up in whatever manner they saw fit. Instead, we got "I said, you said." c.i.

There is a lot of truth is this statement. My only issue with the "Whiteness Studies" idea is that the risk of repeating the same mistakes and one of the people (Winant) quoted in the original article at least seems to realize that and is cautious of it. I'm skeptical that everyone else involved in promoting these classes are as concerned.

If the idea is to teach a history of racism then by all means do so. Some of the rest of the original article indicates that what is being taught is that racism is a uniquely US institution that somehow began with the founding of this country. It's hard to tell exactly what is being taught though without actually sitting through some of the classes.

If a class on racism is going to be taught it has to include the effects of the European Enlightenment period and the move from "race" as a descriptor of religious and then national identity, to one of skin color. (Interestingly, Jew's seem to be the only "group" where race and religion align. I don't know of any other group that this still holds for..).

But, back to my point here.. If these classes are only focused on the development of race within the US then they miss huge portions of the whole development of "race" as a social issue and leave gaping holes for people to step into with charges of "historical revisionism". If the issue is that the history being taught leaves out huge sections of society or sweeps portions under the rug the classes being developed have to cover the entire issue, not just selective portions that fit someone's agenda or they are repeating the same mistakes themselves.

I am merely European American. My ancestors, from the British Isles including Ireland were over centuries invaded, enslaved, raped, pillaged, burnt out, murdered and basically ass fu@ked by every race and peoples imaginable, including the Moors.

Why Celts and Druids were COMPLETELY massacred over the course of a few weeks in a most grisly fashion by the Romans.

I'm not pissed off about it, and yet I am troubled by why I am a "bad guy" by virtue of being "white".

I grew up practically the only white kid in a very rough urban neighborhood and I learned one very important lesson. "EVERYONE is a racist and a bigot if that's the way you want to view it. I prefer to think that everyone is a bully and deep down enjoys the suffering and misery of others. Although there are a few people born enlightened and kind in that respect, we generally assassinate or crucify them, among other methods of killing them.

It is our genuine effort to overcome our natural selves that define us as decent people. Few succeed, but the trying gives life meaning.

It's a little ironic to me to be saying that classes on "white studies" (which, by the way, are in my estimation not a treatment generally on "racism" as much as they are a tutorial about white privilege in the US) should strive to be inclusive of the entirety of the spectrum of events and perspectives encompassing the race issue, when their very existence is an attempt to address omissions and inaccuracies in all of American education, since before blacks were whipped for trying to read, until now.

Neither do I think that I have any fault toward Black people: none of my ancestors has ever owned or traded Black slaves. And generalization implied by the very name of the subject implies my fault, since I am a part of the anthropologic entity called "White people". Zero tolerance to any kind of racial discrimination, that is what I agree with, but not with imposing feeling of fault on all the White people.

The truth in BiPolarBear's post is a large part of why I don't buy into the phenomena of "white guilt". But, the larger truth is I am not guilty of what I don't do.

Europeans didn't invent racism, and blacks aren't the sole victims of it, or of slavery. However, nationally, it is the best interest of everyone to address OUR ills. And the black/white issue is among our most serious problems, IMO. (Although, I believe substantial progress has been made.)

Even minor differences within races are enough for people to draw distinctions and claim some fake superiority. I was surprised and baffled when I discovered blacks have some type of hierarchy and discrimination within their race, based on skin lightness. I remember a conversation among black friends about the attractiveness of women we knew. One was dazzlingly beautiful, but the men agreed, "She's too dark." This stayed with me a long time. I still don't know how to process it. The lighter skinned women were much more popular.

The name of the thread is "White Studies". How does that impugn culpability on you?

I agree.





I agree.