Self-serving masochistic self-pity don't usually git no guffaws, darlin' . . . you gotta keep yer seering pain fer the quiet moments at home, or among reliable friends in a private place . . . unless, of course you have in mind an impassioned disquisition on the racial inequities which you personally suffer . . .
. . . and in that case, i'm outta here . . .
Race as it relates to my personal experience, ie, the way people treat me, has been somewhat comical. I am a mix of Dutch, English, Irish, Choctaw, Cherokee, Tejas, no telling what else. As a teen in South Texas, I was sometimes asked by the cops to show my id because they wanted to be sure I was not an illegal (Mexican). In Brooklyn and Manhattan I was variously called "Tony", "Louigie" and just plain asked what I am. One person thought I was a Jew, another could not be shaken from the belief I am Puerto Rican. Even today it occasionally happens. Some think I am "Spanish." My mother-in-law and father-in-law acted for a long time as though they thought I were a foreigner of some kind. I guess they had family discussions. A few years ago when I grew a mustache, my brother-in-law told my wife, "With that mustache it looks like he could be anything." I view it all as a source of amusement and also a learning experience.
I have no problems like edgar. In England, I am a "paki" even though I am an Indian
What happened to the love sc? Whatever you might think, I believe that my story needs more extrapolation here. Most Jews I know love that Jew/Jew-ish line, and the Chinese restaurant joke is a long-standing classic...
Do you want to hear my wife's story? Well, here it is: Her mother's family is Muslim. Her father's is Catholic. Her mother's family originally hails from Pakistan, and immigrated to Trinidad. Her father was from a mixed-race couple, half-Chinese, half-Indian, and his grandmother was Black. I have not met any of her father's family, but of course, I have met her father. Her mother's family is staunchly Muslim, and one aunt has been to Mecca and became Haj.
A bit of back story: My mother-in-law had an aneurysm in the late months of pregnancy. It was get the baby out, or death. The closest hospital was a Catholic hospital. When it came out that she was Muslim, they refused to deliver the baby unless she converted. They even had a priest on hand to deliver last rites. They would have preferred to let her and my future wife die rather than operate, because she was not a Catholic. Well, in a panic, my wife's father allowed them to convert her, and the baby was delivered.
My mother-in-law lost the ability to speak, read, and function normally from the aneuryism. When she was old enough, her daughter become 'mom', so to speak, and had to teach her everything again, how to speak, how to read, how to function again. Her family isolated her, for converting, but to this day feel no qualms about taking advantage of her, in terms of asking her to do things for them.
As for me, was I accepted by them? Not that I care much, as we do not have any contact with them, but here is where my personal 'white privilege' kicked in: They knew I was Jewish, and hey, we all know how well Jews and Muslims get along, but here is the kicker. Muslims favour light-skinned people. They believe that the whiter you are, the closer to Allah you are, so they will grudgingly accept a family member marrying a Jew, if they look white.
Personally, I resent the implication that I 'pass' or even 'identify' myself as 'white'. I am Jewish, I am white, and I am also simply the person that I am, with opinions, and a mind of my own. I feel organized religion is as divisive as racism, so no, I do not identify myself with it. That does not negate the fact that my family is Jewish, and I do not ever deny that heritage. Also, just for the record, everyone we know in our group of friends and family we hang out with who are coupled are in an interracial or otherwise mixed relationship (i.e. religion). The rest are gay.
Thanks (or no thanks) to the 4 of you guys. My pain was caused by another who doesn't choose to reply ... so Setanta, with apologies to Bob Dylan: It's alright, pa, I'm only bleeding ... and it has absolutely nothing to do with the 4 of you.
He chooses not to address this and I respect that because it has to do with only the 2 of us ... and it's better simply dropped at that. So, let's all drop it now; please do not question, please don't ask why; just let it be, all I'm asking for is a little respect - and, if you guys don't quit addressing my unfortunate bleeding here @ A2K, I'll quote some other songs, ok? and, believe me, I've got lots of 'em
. In advance, thank you, I'd really appreciate it
There is no biological or geographical distinction for race. It's a generalized term about people's general outward appearance.
Hi, Portal Star, this is your first post I have seen and it's lovely. I wish we could just strip away the outer trappings and all deal soul to soul! "What A Wonderful World That Would Be". We are in reality just one race: the human race. Hope to see more of your thoughts around A2K . . .
Very old Jewish joke. c.i.
**********************
Six retired Floridians are playing poker in the condo clubhouse when Meyerwitz loses $500 on a single hand, clutches his chest, and drops dead at the table.
Showing respect for their fallen comrade, the other five stand up and continue playing.
Finkelstein looks around and asks, "So, who's gonna tell the wife?"
They draw straws. Goldberg picks the short one.
They tell him to be discreet, be gentle, don't make a bad situation any worse.
"Discreet? I'm the most discreet mensch you'll ever meet. Discretion is my middle name. Leave it to me."
Goldberg goes over to the Meyerwitz apartment and knocks on the door.
The wife answers and asks what he wants.
Goldberg declares, "Your husband just lost $500 and is afraid to come home."
The wife says, "Tell him to drop dead!"
"I'll go tell him," says Goldberg.
Portal Star: please don't be dismayed over ci's ethnic slur that he refers to as a joke ... we don't all think that way here, but, unfortunately, a lot do and Jews seem to be the easy scapegoats, as usual. Keep on thinking those good thoughts of yours, Portal Star, and so will I!
Sweetie
sc, It's interesting to see a Jewish interpret the above joke as a ethnic slur, because it was shared by a Jew. c.i.
ci, I cannot believe you wrote that! You mean you've never heard of minority groups internalizing majority feelings about themselves. There are self-hating Jews just as there are Uncle Toms. You mean there are no problems with any of that in any Japanese people?
SC, does it really have to be self-hatred? Or just self-deprecating humor?
That said, I think it is interesting how the exact same words can be fine coming from within a group, and a problem if coming from the outside of the group. But I've had my fill of starting "things that make you go hmmm" threads for a while.
I don't go so far as to say it's "self-hating." I don't take it that seriously unless it's really offensive - which I'll admit is sometimes hard to determine. But, I've shared jokes about a Polish-Japanese, because it's one of my favorites - and it's funny. I do not think the joke I shared even comes close to a Uncle Tom joke. If it is, I offer my sincerest apologies. c.i.
I think I may be a little too "radical" for you, so why don't we bring this thread back to that for which it was intended, ie Whiteness/White Skin Privilege etc, and see if people can tolerate that actual subject throughout, until the thread just dies a natural death...How's that?
Especially with the July 4th holiday, would it be appropriate to discuss if this nation has fulfilled its stated goals vis-a-vis people of color as compared to "white" people. Anyone up for tackling the stated theme of this thread?
Quote:The privilege walk was part of a course in whiteness studies, a controversial and relatively new academic field that seeks to change how white people think about race. The field is based on a left-leaning interpretation of history by scholars who say the concept of race was created by a rich white European and American elite, and has been used to deny property, power and status to nonwhite groups for two centuries.
Advocates of whiteness studies, most of whom are white liberals who hope to dismantle notions of race, believe that white Americans are so accustomed to being part of a privileged majority they do not see themselves as part of a race.
Just helping you folks focus here. The crux of this topic is whether such studies are appropriate/useful.
Thanks be to you, Mr. S., you're a good man! Let's use your post and try to see if anyone wants to begin anew, this time having the courage to remain on topic ...
When I lived in DC, I had this Frederick Douglass Speech on the wall in my home. Its about what the 4th means to black people. I think its must reading for anyone trying to understand what shapes our perspectives on "patriotism", and some other honored institutions of the American mind...
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part4/4h2927t.html
OMIGOD, Snood, just re-read that (thanks to you) and it still sends shivers up and down my spine. That's why I just can't seem to drop these kinds of arguments, painful as they are sometimes ... They are just too important!
It's my hope that we consider the original 'attempt' to stay on-topic as a 'rough draft' and that now people will feel more comfortable in dealing with the real issues up for discussion. It would be nice ... BTW, anyone who's seen my posts from about page 2 through somewhere in the upper 20's pages will know just exactly where I have stood all along. In case they don't wish to look back: I agree with everything the wonderful Mr. Douglass wrote down (click on Snood's link), ie it's 2 worlds in this country and after all this time, we absolutely must
(1) admit it,
(2) discuss it, and
(3) redress it!
I think race studies can be useful, but usually not for the purposes for which they're being used. Sociology is a "soft" science, and is easily afected by people's personal bias as it deals with everyone's favorite subject: themselves and their society. Researchers tend to do incorrect polls, slant information, and infer false or illogical conclusions from test results. I have seen this done frequently with race issues, which is a real hot topic right now.
I am strongly opposed to affirmative action, because any law that applies to a racial group doesn't acknowledge racial equality or individualism. I also don't like "un-biasing" test scores, etc.
People's attitues -are- influence by culture and culture is influenced by race, but people are not slaves to their outer appearance. Heck, the only people represented as "minorities" are the majority of the minorities with more voting power. Giving "whites" mass culture is like saying the Irish are the same as the Russians, the Spanish the same as the Isralis, Egyptians the same Icelandic...
What if you're a black person who has lived in London for 5 generations, and move to the U.S.? You're still considered "African American." People can put down just about any race they want on paper, as there is no real definition or amount required for race. I feel the government should hold all people equal under law.
Oops, Portal Star, here we come to a parting of the ways. IMO you are dealing with an ideal rather than reality. For instance, regarding AA, do you realize that doesn't begin to provide as much assistance as other preferences do? Think about it. Did you know that people get more preference for being 'legacy' students; also, what about athletes? AA is just one area and there I believe you are correct in wishing the government would hold all people to be equal under the law. But in the real world the fact is they just don't! The propaganda in this country beats and beats the drum on only affirmative action rather than addressing all the other perks other groups receive. Again, you are dealing with a utopia which just doesn't exist. I respectfully offer this in hopes of your reconsideration ...
