Whiteness Studies

But snood - guilt is an operative word here. After all, it's been the basis of every organized religion, and dictates so many actions. Now, guilt about what has been done to another set of people (or even one individual) is used for all sorts of manipulations.

I come back to talking about it - as honesly as we can. As a particular example - the Anita Hill-Clarence Thomas affair. To me, Hill's assertions deserved to be looked into, and never seemed the actions of a vindictive woman scorned. But I think Thomas beame a symbol, rather than an individual, and all those white senators (and I shudder as I see them sitting in their semi-circle with Anita Hill seated before them) were assuaging their guilt about their prejudices by assessing Thomas's qualifications dishonestly. And today, protestations of Thomas as a brilliant jurist always ring flat. But who will discuss what seems to be the obvious, or how they really feel about it? And until we learn how to do some of that face-on, we will continue with saying one thing but meaning another. Now, would this be part of a whiteness study?

Because it seems to me that discussions in the abstract are one thing, but bringing them down to the level of recognition (such as the Tulia case) is another.

I said:
I think if you put five black men, or five white women, or any such 'racially homogenous' group together--they would begin mental jockeying for superiority before the door closed behind them.

They would use cost of clothing and jewelry- weight- intelligence/education- physical beauty- height- strength of personality-

All people do this.

To which edgar said:
sophia
I don't.
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I posit all of us do this subconsciously. You can't help to take in some information from appearances, even if the second it pops in our mind, some of us are disappointed in ourselves, and reject the biased thinking process.

The ones that accept and act on this immediate judgement are the baddies in our society--but I think we should be comfortable enough with ourselves to admit the instant judgements of socioeconomic levels based on clothing, or bad teeth--educational levels based on speech patterns--
Is he fat? He's lazy and eats like a pig... Having these quick thoughts is not the problem. Its what we do with them.

I think there are unspoken pecking orders or hierarchies in every office, classroom, church, .... everywhere there is more than one person. Race just expands the hierarchy. I feel it is intrinsic in the human condition to 'place' yourself in tht pecking order, and 'place' others. Someone said somewhere in this thread (or a similar race thread) that the only hope for poor whites staying off the bottom of the pecking order was blacks.

The Irish also provided poor whites a cushion from the bottom rung of the ladder during their immigration. I think this whole thing is based on each human's ridiculous, fake-based need to push someone down beneath them, so they aren't on the bottom of society. Only those of us with healthy self-worth realize we don't need to denigrate someone else, in order for us to be acceptable as who we are. This is why, it seems to me, the ones most vitriolic about race are the ones with low self-esteem.

Enter blackness-- There are rich, handsome/beautiful, intelligent, famous blacks. Due to some of these traits/achievments, these blacks move up in the hierarchy. They by-pass many whites. Blackness shouldn't be a negative trait to add in to the totem pole climbing. Neither should ugliness, fatness, low income, a stutter, or education. But, they are.

If you opened your own business and were highly reliant on the face in the reception area to represent your company-- two equally qualified candidates were an unattractive, obese white woman, and an attractive black man.... who would you hire?

Sofia, Nobody is that equal - and I'd pick the one most qualified for the job. c.i.

<*cough*cheater*cough*>

:wink:

You think lightness or darkness of black skin tones makes any difference, expecially in the famous sports and movie figures?

Those two fields, no - criteria would be atheletism and on camera sex appeal.

But it is rare today that anyone is out of hand not picked because of skin color - the big factor is, all other things being equal, then what is the deciding factor? - on what % of results basis?

An interesting article:

http://www.stanford.edu/dept/news/report/news/2003/may14/ordering-514.html

Interesting statements from the article.

Very and very.

this kind of stuff really interestes me!!

Hey, I thought this topic had closed...........


I know I sound peevish, but this is an issue that bugs me no end. Skin colour and ancillary features are just cosmetic, the kinds of varience in genetic makeup that would make all my skin black for instance is tiny and it would be related to 2 things:
-my genome at conception (something I can't do anything about)
-the physical environment I grow up in (something I can't do anything about)

How can these determine 'fitness' in social settings? They don't relate to my intelligence, my abilities to perform work or sports, or whether I prefer spicy foods or cats vs dogs. There is no 'innate' human archetype that is connected to our physical appearance. The only thing that DOES matter is that one type of homo, more adaptable than every other, left Eastern Africa about 90 millenia ago to colonise every habitable part of the world. We is what we is, and what we all is is HUMAN.

Yeah, boss, most of us make that connection, but so many still won't/don't. c.i.

Hey, Mr. Stillwater and ci:

if people were governed by logic and reason, your stated beliefs would be obvious to all

people are not

that's why this topic is not closed

this topic needs to be kept open and discussed until this little community of A2Kers, at least, can open our hearts and minds to each other and, at the very least, understand that logic and reason are not enough

this topic needs to be kept open until people open our hearts to one another and hash all of this out in the open until we can recognize what has been done, what is continuing to be done, how joking and minimalizing both will not be of any service to anyone, and no matter how painful it becomes, we all are able to understand this subject needs to be addressed and redressed by us all

Okie dokie then...if one must be blind, let us be blind to all prejudice...I will start with a story....

About a year ago, business slowed, I got a bit depressed, I gained a fair bit of weight. The timing was bad....the aunt and uncle on one side of the family decided to hire me for a very important engagement party. Well, the night before, my back went into spasm, and I was barely able to do the function. In fact, I had to let my service people finish the party for me as I was not able to stand. Later I heard that my aunt was pissed at me (after 6 or 9 glasses of wine), and she said to my dad "Well if he would just lose 40 lbs. he wouldn't have the back problems."

After hearing that, the family staged an 'intervention.' I decided to lose weight for myself, not for the family, and in reality, 40 lbs. was way off from what I needed to lose. Since then, I have lost 23 lbs., and I am back within a safe weight for my BMI, and I am in good health.

My brother is getting married next month. The other day, my mother commented on the fact that I looked like I had lost more weight. I said yes, I have actually, although I am not following any diet, just eating better and getting out more. She says: "Wow, that's fantastic, now if you could only lose 5 more pounds before your brother's wedding...." I wanted to smack her....if your own mother can be prejudiced against you, and your family, what can we possibly expect from strangers? Whiteness studies may be a great idea, but how many more programs are we going to need to "educate" people about bigotry, and where is the money going to come from? Bigotry starts at home IMO...luckily, I am old enough and educated enough to recognize it, even from my own family. I love them, but screw 'em too. :wink:

cav, the horizontal striped sleeves and the baggy yellow cover-alls do make you look a bit heavy

and there's the red hair..............

Cav, darling, you know I love you, but THE TOPIC IS WHITENESS, ie WHITE SKIN PRIVILEGE, address/redress

I understand bigotry begins at home; that could be a cogent tangent, BUT that's not what I meant (and I know you know that)

Why are y'all unable to deal with INSTITUTIONAL RACISM? It's not about blame; it's not about ageism, sizeism, anti-Semitism even; it's about a long-standing problem right here in the good old U.S.A. It's not a joke, but I guess it's time to face the fact that our little microcosm just can't deal IMHO . . .

Cav--
I thank you for your story. After my last pregnancy, a considerable amount of tonnage remained. My own Whiteness Study (Fatness) kicked in. I had formerly been attractive, talked my way out of 8 speeding tickets, and was basically spoiled rotten by a society that places ridiculous emphasis on looks. (Was pulled for speeding while prego: Got the ticket.)

Suddenly, I was not 'in'. I was definitely out. The very prejudices I had held had been turned back on me. The looks I recieved showed disgust, rather than favor. (40 lbs overweight.) I learned more about prejudice, my own and others', in that few months of life than I had all 23 years previous. I kept wanting to tell people I AM THE SAME PERSON I WAS WHEN MY BODY WAS THIN.

I'd already developed a heart for blacks, Jews, homosexuals, mentally retarded, mentally ill people. I hadn't realized until I was fat, that I had prejudices against unattractive, overweight people. These people face discrimination tht isn't covered by any law.

The thing I missed most when I was fat were the simple smiles from people as they walk past. I thought everyone got them. Some people just see hurriedly averted eyes.

A mean plan, cav...
My daughter walks on her treadmill and has maintained a svelte figure for two years, but during middle school, she'd plumped up a bit. Her grandmother was constantly mentioning her weight, and I was furious. It really bothered my daughter, so I gave her advice. Grandmother was one who was very thin, and took great pains to maintain a flawless appearance. But, no one is perfect... So, the next time Grandma mentioned chubbiness to my daughter, she said, "I know. I'm working on it. You know, if you'd just get your nose thinned a little, you'd look so much better. Then, we'd both be perfect."

Grandma has not criticised the kid about anything since.

I think there is a chance that over time people will keep doing what they are doing, that is, hiring by whatever means, those who are more simpatico, and those who are more simpatico will be changing. Maybe people will be hired for the wrong reasons, but then, they always have been.

OK, sofia, I have a link or two for you...first the Western Gathering thread, under North America, and then the Is Physical Appearance Completely Irrelevant thread, under philosophy and debate.

Signed,
presently overweight osso and so what?

back with links.

OK, ok, that is a tangent. Need we not get into us overweights of diff ethnic groups.

Still, I'll post the links.