ok...let me clarify...there's a lot of side-barring going on here...
1. i am not a creationist...
2. i am not promoting religion...i am not trying to prove that religion is superior to science...
my point is that there are things in science that have to be taken on faith/trust...
thus far, no one has given me irrefutable evidence that any species evolved from another species...what you have given is your thoughts, opinions, readings, and confidence in evolution...
gc, You're wrong about DNA not proving evolution. Did you know that scientists are able to trace all cultures from Africa? Maybe you don't. c.i.
how does this prove that one species, human, evolved from another species??...if i'm not mistaken, creationists use this "evidence" to promote their "adam" myth...i don't think you meant that "all cultures" can be traced back to africa...didn't you mean that all humans can be traced back to africa??...
i will say this...if species change can be proved, it will probably be from DNA studies...actually, i'm surprised that it hasn't already...
What c.i. was talking about is thatWe CAN see from Short tTandem Repeat alleles sTRs, that populations have entered and settled an area through about the last 20K years. Using transformed DNA (osteocalcin) the rate of accumulation of population mutations can be tracked and traced fairly accurately. Thus the populational STR components of the noncoding (interon) sectors of the genes act as a travel visa of your ancestors cast in the mitochondrial DNA. Sounds like youre too busy wanting to pick an argument, cause you could have easily learned these by reading some very revealing milestone works by Kobayashi or Huston on this very subject.
Youre surprised they havent done this already?,well surprise
They Have , and its relatively old news.
I guess theres nothing wrong with "faith' if it can ultimately be proven or disproven, then thats science. If you never challenge your faith-thats religion.
Farmerman
This intelligent design thing has me confused. Creationists say the Universe and life is so complicated that it could never have evolved in nature. Nature would never make anything so complicated on its own.
If that's the case then whatever designed everything must be more intricate then us. Who designed the creator? If the answer is no one then the argument of intelligent design due to complexity is invalid. If god can be so complex without a designer then why can't we and the Universe exist without the hand of god designing and making it?
Gc47
What would it take to prove to you that one species evolved from another?
If you want to see it with your own eyes then you will never get the proof you want. A Homo sapiens did not suddenly pop out of a Homo erectus' uterus one day. It takes time and you can't see it in the flash of a human's lifetime.
gc, you're not saying anything by your statement, "my point is that there are things in science that have to be taken on faith/trust..." We never disputed that! That "faith/trust" comes from repeated verifications until it can be proven otherwise. Can you understand that? c.i.
xingu-good morning -yeh theres a lot of inconsistency in Intel Design (ID). Its framers have taken the "designer" out of the sequence. The designer is uncorruptable and separate, so the inconsistensies that you developed are really no problem to them. Wish I coulkd get away with that. Also, the concept of "irreducible complexity" has been taken on and cast back at the IDers from a number of areas.
eg.
The STR loci that I mentioned above is a segment on a particular gene that,.less than a gene and greater than a codon , is recognized to be a record of humanities wanderings and settlements as weve come out of Africa--IDers dont like this cause now irreducible complexity doesnt work anymore.
Also, As Margulis has presented, eukaryotes have hoovered in entire genomes of other animals and plants as theyve evolved and these genomes are preserved in the genic structure of the resulting prokarytotes. Foe example, chitin, has somehow been stolen and taken into the genome of lichens, and this compound is a unique molecular compound usually found in arthropods.
The IDers dont like to have their own foundations challenged by later scientific discoveries, so it looks like thyre going to have to keep coming up with new "boundaries for their arguments"
Have wondered how chitin could be common to and exclusive to fungi and arthropods...
Still have to read Margulis.
Thread has gone a bit beyond a bit of archeological buggery, though, hasn't it?
patiodog wrote:Thread has gone a bit beyond a bit of archeological buggery, though, hasn't it?
Yes it has -- and GOOD!
I honestly hope every thread I initiate has a truly interesting sidebar or two -- and that they prove to be more interesting than the initial issue.
That certainly is what is happening here.
Ever since a2k came back on a few weeks ago, Ive noticed that Im getting what appear to be "custom ads" through google. The latest, and funniest is "2 PhDs take a shot at evolution"... Like that hasnt been done before. I read the link and it was a good enough compilation of all kinds of things that the "opposition" considers important to topple all this evolutionist blasphemy.
Back to topic. Whole thing's a big, fat fraud - when the deed was done is probably more interesting than the actual box itself. Back in the C13th when it was highly political to create 'proofs' like the Shroud of Turin or the Donation of Constantine.
Latest one is the Spear that allegedly stuck Christ. Now the actual artifact is not the real thing, but there is a nail in it that is probably very likely Roman just like the one those Jew bastards use to nail up our Messiah*!! Now, I'm no historian, but the requirements of an Empire that lacked fasteners other than nails probably meant that there was about 5 billion of the things floating around the known world around that time. I'm waiting for the discovery of the amphora that very probably was just like the kind of the sort that Jay Lo would have turned water into wine in.
*heavy, heavy irony here
In one of the "Black Adder" episodes, someone displays with reverence the fingerbone of Christ they brought back with them at great expense from the holy land. Another character pulls out a bag full of fingerbones. "Christ's fingerbone? Here, I got 'em six for a shilling." Or some such.
Equus my fine fellow, you look somewhat familiar.
Mr Stillwater: FRAU BLUCHER!!!!!!!
(nyuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh!)
Back together again......
And our old friend the hermit!!!
Quote:husker, You speak for yourself; many, even amongst the faithful, always seek to see more proof. got-cha! c.i.
If I had not already known, I would be convinced by the above that you are not a man of faith in God, c.i.
Nor are you very well versed in the ways and thoughts of Christians,
GOTCHA!
There are so many varieties of christians, I'm at a loss to identify an 'average.' However, I'm sure many here can produce examples of so-called biblical artifacts that have been found to 'prove' the existence of christ. The robe, chalice, dead sea scrolls, miracles of one kind or another, impressions of figures that looks like the Virgin Mary, and many more - all with the hope that once and for all there is some evidence. c.i.
Too many pages to review so without bothering to read I will give you my take. With all the problems we, the world, encounters daily whether the biblical artifacts are real or forgeries doen't mean at thing IMO.
