In the End I’m Saved and You’re Not?

Mindonfire,

I don't believe you can state your question so simply.
Only God can read your heart. No other human can truly know
who is saved and who is not, there are just certain signs to go
by, but no one can truly know another person's heart.

For example, it's true, there are hypocrites in church, I don't
think there are many Christians who deny that, but in the end
it will be God who sorts out the wheat from the chaff.

That's why we as people shouldn't judge other people's faith - leave that up to God.

Raul-7 wrote:

That's why we as people shouldn't judge other people's faith - leave that up to God.

Exactly.

That's why we shouldn't chop anyone's hands off or stone anyone to death.
Instead, you should work on removing the plank from your own eye.

These punishments are decreed from God to protect the religion, life, intellect, offspring and property of every single person. It helps purify and improve society. How many times did I explain this to you? I thought you actually bothered to read what I posted? How can you question God when He created us, surely He knows what we do not. Stop judging God's punishments.

Raul-7 wrote:

These punishments are decreed from God to protect the religion, life, intellect, offspring and property of every single person. It helps purify and improve society. How many times did I explain this to you? I thought you actually bothered to read what I posted? How can you question God when He created us, surely He knows what we do not. Stop judging God's punishments.

These punishments are not decreed from God. At best, they are misinterpretations, and at worst, they are lies. What bothers me is that you choose to ignore reasonable explanations, such as these, in favor of one that requires you to commit the most terrible acts of violence. And on top of that, you do it in the name of your god. I cannot express to you how disturbing that is to me.
Having said all of that, I am still grateful to have this opportunity to communicate with you and, hopefully, get to better understand your thoughts and beliefs.

Question: I am a strong believer and always try to submit to the directives of Islam. However one question keeps bothering me over and over again. Being a lawyer by profession, I keep wondering on the nature of Islamic punishments. They seem to be very harsh and cruel if you allow me to say that. Can you explain?
Answer: Without refuting the fact that Islamic punishments are indeed very severe and harsh, two things may perhaps help you in understanding the nature and logic of this severity:
The first thing that needs to be kept in mind is that if one reflects on the style and linguistic constructions in which these punishments are mentioned in the Qur'an, it comes to light that these punishments are extreme forms of reproof. They are to be given only and only if the extent of the crime and the state of the person who has committed the crime deserve no leniency. In other words, the fact that whether a person has committed a particular crime or not is not the only factor to be ascertained by the court; equally important is the information concerning the factors which led to the crime and the state of the person who committed the crime. If this information induces a judge to decide that the crime has not been committed in its ultimate form, he has all the authority to punish the criminal with lesser punishments like fining him or having him beaten up. Precisely, on such grounds, in a particular case, the Caliph ?'Umar (rta) refused to amputate the hand of a person who was forced to steal because of hunger simply because he thought the circumstances were such that the person deserved leniency. It is known that there was a severe drought during his rule and it was in this drought that the incident had taken place. In other words, one can easily conclude that in this particular aspect the Islamic penal code is no different from most other penal codes.
The second important thing that needs to be taken into consideration is that the purpose of most Islamic punishments is not merely to punish the criminal, but to make his punishment an act of deterrence for any further instance of the crime. Everyone would agree that peace and security of a society occupy fundamental importance if it is to develop and prosper. Societies which are crime ridden and in which people feel insecure obviously soon disintegrate and eventually have no role in the development of culture and civilization. As such, it is the primary responsibility of a government to make sure that the life, wealth and honour of its citizens are protected to the utmost. Besides educating and instructing people so that they have morally sound personalities, it is necessary to severely punish people who in spite of being provided with the opportunities of life exceed limits by playing with the life, wealth and honour of others. In order to cleanse a society from crime as much as possible, Islam wants to make an example of people who create nuisance in the society and disrupt its peace and tranquillity. Consequently, the punishments it prescribes are instrumental in bringing peace and security to a society as far as possible.

echi wrote:

Raul-7 wrote:

These punishments are decreed from God to protect the religion, life, intellect, offspring and property of every single person. It helps purify and improve society. How many times did I explain this to you? I thought you actually bothered to read what I posted? How can you question God when He created us, surely He knows what we do not. Stop judging God's punishments.

These punishments are not decreed from God. At best, they are misinterpretations, and at worst, they are lies. What bothers me is that you choose to ignore reasonable explanations, such as these, in favor of one that requires you to commit the most terrible acts of violence. And on top of that, you do it in the name of your god. I cannot express to you how disturbing that is to me.
Having said all of that, I am still grateful to have this opportunity to communicate with you and, hopefully, get to better understand your thoughts and beliefs.

They are decreed from God. I already showed you the verses relating to stoning the adulter and adulteress.

Someone already asked this question before and here is an honest answer from a Muslim who knows far better than I do.

Quote:

... Without refuting the fact that Islamic punishments are indeed very severe and harsh, two things may perhaps help you in understanding the nature and logic of this severity:
The first thing that needs to be kept in mind is that if one reflects on the style and linguistic constructions in which these punishments are mentioned in the Qur'an, it comes to light that these punishments are extreme forms of reproof. They are to be given only and only if the extent of the crime and the state of the person who has committed the crime deserve no leniency. In other words, the fact that whether a person has committed a particular crime or not is not the only factor to be ascertained by the court ...

... The second important thing that needs to be taken into consideration is that the purpose of most Islamic punishments is not merely to punish the criminal, but to make his punishment an act of deterrence for any further instance of the crime.

Everyone would agree that peace and security of a society occupy fundamental importance if it is to develop and prosper. ... In order to cleanse a society from crime as much as possible, Islam wants to make an example of people who create nuisance in the society and disrupt its peace and tranquillity. Consequently, the punishments it prescribes are instrumental in bringing peace and security to a society as far as possible.

Mindonfire,

I don't believe you can state your question so simply.
Only God can read your heart.

No other human can truly know
who is saved and who is not, there are just certain signs to go
by, but no one can truly know another person's heart.

For example, it's true, there are hypocrites in church, I don't
think there are many Christians who deny that, but in the end
it will be God who sorts out the wheat from the chaff.

Raul-7 wrote:

That's why we as people shouldn't judge other people's faith - leave that up to God.

Exactly.

That's why we shouldn't chop anyone's hands off or stone anyone to death.
Instead, you should work on removing the plank from your own eye.

echi wrote:

Raul-7 wrote:

That's why we as people shouldn't judge other people's faith - leave that up to God.

Exactly.

That's why we shouldn't chop anyone's hands off or stone anyone to death.
Instead, you should work on removing the plank from your own eye.

So, let's do away with all punishments. Is this what you are proposing?

You did, and neither are those verses decreed from God. Why do you think they are? Who told you?

Who is the judge in this court? Is he a human being or a god? Why do you believe a person should be the judge of another person?

FEAR is not the path to PEACE.

Judge is human. He should be fair and unbiased.

Fear is the path to peace. If people actually had a fear of God they would know he that he infact sees and hears everything they do and thus would not resort to murder or theft. Fear keeps people in line.

Sure, let's debate it then. You claim these verses (and perhaps the entire Quran) are decreed by God. Prove it.

As far as I know, there are three scriptures which have been said to be the direct word of God: the Torah, the Gospel and the Quran. However, all of us agree that the Torah and the Gospel have been changed time and time again. No two Bibles are alike.

What about the Quran? The Quran states that it is the last scripture to be sent down from God, and the God has take it upon himself to preserve it. It is true that the Quran has remained completely unchanged for over 1400 years, since the time of it's revelation. Not a single word, nor a single letter has been changed.

Cristians believe in the Torah, they believe that it was sent down by God, but they follow the Gospel because it is the most "revised" message so far. Is it not possible that yet another book would come after the Gospel? I don't that is is stated anywhere in the Gospel that no more books will proceed it.

Jesus was an Israelite/Jew right? At that time, his people were following the teachings of the Torah, but the Torah's message has been altered, and the jewish rabbis of the time were taking advantage of people using religion. Jesus comes along with his miracles and a new book. Many people start to follow Jesus' teachings. It's not like they converted or anything. They simply knew that God has sent them another prophet (or as Christians believe, his Son) down with a new book, which corrected the mistakes in the altered Torah.

Now let's take a look the the last scripture, the Quran. There is no "proof" that it is the word of God, and there is no "proof" either for the other two scriptures. But, let's take a look at the facts shall we?

First of all, the prophet Abraham had two sons: Ishmael and Isaac. Ishmael became the "father" of the Arabs, and Isaac became the "father" of the Israelites/Jews. Jesus (peace be upon him) is therefore and decendant of Isaac, and Muhammad (peace be upon him) is a decendant of Ishmael. The Arabs never had a book sent down to them like the Jews, but they still believed in God and followed the teachings of Ishmael. However, they strayed far from the right path over time. They began to engage in idol worshipping, alchohol consumption, gambling, and just about everything that went against the teachings of Ishmael. They treated their women next to animals, and even buried their daughters alive since they preferred boys. There were some Arabs, at the time as well who were Christian, meaning they believed that Jesus was the son of God (from the Islamic point of view they were following the altered Gospel).

Muhammad was born into this disgusting Arab society. Growing up, he was highly respected because he was very honest and trustworthy, and was very good at solving social disputes.

He knew there was something terribly wrong with his society's culture and religion. The Arabs would have all sorts of festivals which involved idol worshipping and alcohol consumption, but Muhammad steered clear of these habits. He often went aone to a cave in Mount Hira, to worship God and ponder about the point of his existence.

Here is his story: One day while he was up in the cave, an angel (Gabriel) came to him. Muhammad was completely terrified. No, angels do not look like beautiful human beings with wings and halos. All we know is this: They have wings, how many we're not sure, but Gabriel specifically has 300 pairs of wings. Angels are huge, and they are terrifying in their true form, at least in a human's point of view.

Anyway, Gabiriel gives Muhammad a command: "Recite,", he says. Muhammad, being illiterate answers: "I am not a reciter." The angel embraces Muhammad with a rip-cracking hug and repeats the command: "Recite," he says. Again Muhammad answers, "I am not a reciter". Gabriel repeats the embrace, asking Muhammad to repeat after him and said: "Recite in the name of your Lord who created! He created man from that which clings. Recite; and thy Lord is most Bountiful, He who has taught by the pen, taught man what he knew not."

Muhammad, still terrified, repeats what the angel said and runs out of the cave. But the Gabriel follows him out of the cave. Muhamad can't even bear to look at the angel, so one can imagine how frightening Gabriel was. Muhammad turns his head to look away, but everywhere he looked, there was Gabriel. Can you even imagine something like that? When Gabriel spreads his wings, he is so Gigantic his form fills the entire sky. Then Gabriel tells Muhammad that he is the prophet of God, and that he is to carry out the God's message to mankind: The Quran.

Okay, so Muhammad (phuh) runs home to his wife Khadija and asks her to cover him (he is still scared of course). She comforts him and he tells her what happened. She calls over a cousin of hers who was Christian. Her cousin hears Muhammad out and confirms that he is indeed a prophet.

The Angel Gabriel visited the Muhammad many times over a period of twenty-three years. Gabriel taught Muhammad the verses, and Muhammad, being illiterate was to memmorize them. He then repeated the verses he was taught to his companions and scribes to record on paper.

But wait a second! What if Muhammad wasn't telling the truth? What if the Quran was not the word of God?

Let's examine this question. The Quran is in Arabic, so only someone who knew Arabic well could have possibly written it. Therefore, there are only 3 possibilities of who could have possibly written it: The Arabs in general, Muhammad, or God.

When looking at the first possibility, one can already have many doubts that it was the Arabs who wrote the Quran. The Quran went against just about every aspect of their lifesyle! The Quran forbids Idol worshipping, but the Arabs loved their Idol gods and were constantly worshipping them and offering sacrifices. The Quran forbid alcohol consumption, but they Arabs freely consumed alcohol. The Quran fobid the maltreatment of women. It said to be kind to women, to treat them as human beings, and it gave women political, economical, and social rights as well. But the Arabs, as I have already said, treated women next to animals. Why would the Arabs write something that goes completely against their socity's ideals? Wouldn't they rather write something that encouraged their lifestyle?

Okay, so that rules out the possibility of the Arabs writing it, so lets look at the second possibility shall we? Could Muhammad have written the Quran?

First I would like to mention this: The Arabic language had reached its peak when it comes to grammar, vocabulary, and poetic expression in the 6th century, during Muhammad's lifetime. Poetry was something highly valued and there were many highly respected poets at the time.

When other poets read the Quran, they were completely baffled by its style and poetic qualities. It was something completely out of this world. But some people just assumed that Muhammad was a poet, and that he was very good with words. But Muhammad was illiterate! It doesn't mean he was stupid, but he would not have they ability to express himself the way the Quran was expressed.

But even if Muhammad was able to express himself so beautifully consider this: The Quran was revealed bit by bit over a period of 23 years, and never did a single aspect of its style change! How could any human keep the exact style of speech for 23 years?

Furthermore, Muslims follow the sayings of the prophet (the hadith) in addition to the Quran. Muhammad expressed his teachings in his own words, which had a completely different style than the Quran. How could a human maintain two completely different styles of speech for 23 years?

But that gives us yet another small possibility: Maybe another individual Arab wrote the Quran, and that person also didn't agree with the pagan Arab culture.

However, the Quran has no author. Anyone who writes a book would put their name on it, but their is no name on the Quran. Furthermore, Muhammad was the only person to ever teach the Quran. He always knew the verses before anyone else.

The Quran also contained many of the same stories found in the Bible and Torah, but Muhammad had never heard of these stories himself! How could he have known? Cristians and Jews from other lands would come to Makkah and ask Muhammad to answer questions that none of the Arabs would have known. But the answer always came, and in the form of Quranic verses.

I'd say that there's enough evidence here that show the Quran is indeed the word of God.

Here's a post made by someone who basically sums it up for you. I know you're probably going to just ignore most of it just like you did with all my other posts. But at least I tried and I hope that maybe God will guide you.

Judge is human. He should be fair and unbiased.

Fear is the path to peace. If people actually had a fear of God they would know he that he infact sees and hears everything they do and thus would not resort to murder or theft. Fear keeps people in line.

Does a child that is whipped and punished harshly for a minor crime love his father? Does a child that fears his father love him? I don't think so. My Dad had a horrible temper when we were growing up. (He's softened with age). We all ran to our rooms and looked busy when we heard him pull into the driveway.

If your father whipped you before he left for work and said "I'm going to work. I know it's a teacher work day and you'll be home and tempted to steal a cookie from the cookie jar so I'm spanking you now for that crime," aren't you going to go ahead and take the cookie after he leaves since you've already been punished?