interdependent co-arising (calling all buddhists)

Ash, just a note: I always benefit from your thoughtful and informative commentaries.
I hope Natalie is managing well.

I'm interested in buddhism, and admire Piffka for her explorations in that and other matters

but I see you folks with your views that I can alllllllmost agree with as being as rigid as any other religionists' views. I see attraction to a structural framework as a key attractant, a kind of seductive purity.

Y'all describe your views lucidly, but to me they seem a variety of programming. Not to be mean, as you can describe my views, if I'd ever try to get them in a bunch - and such as they are - as limp, ill thought-out, and probably worse.

I apprehend through my weak senses and weak brain and find experiential joy much of the time; sometimes my thoughts make more or less sense of connections in my mind.

A few might call that happiness.

Osso,

Let us start our utopia with a chain of drug stores, a chain of grocery stores, a chain of gas chambers, and a national game. After that we can write our Constitution. Finite and Infinite games shall have regularly scheduled intermissions except when exempt. All adult males over the age of 25 shall wear brown shoes on tuesdays. The light will stay on when you close the door and there will be two shelves where none are needed.
Aum Shanti Norris.

Are we in Burma yet? (only a sound alike allusion, mostly)

Peculiar travel suggestions are dancing lessons from god

I was riffing off of a recent NY'r article that mentions, among many others and much else, Aung San Suu Kyi (similar to, if you look at it that way, Aum Shanti) - well, so it goes, connections from my apprehending, joy of sounds/visuals, plus whatever resonance there might be otherwise.

Now you're cooking guys. You have delivered us to the Reality beyond Reality. How can I express my gratitude?

I usually just order in.

I know. I heard from Gus that you always stiff the delivery boy.

I know. I heard from Gus that you always stiff the delivery boy.

Asherman, I have only slightly delved into the Patimokkha and cannot imagine following it. Thich Nhat Hanh's precepts are so much easier... and he says, I think, that they'll accomplish close to the same thing, though on reflection, certainly not with the traditional discipline of monks and nuns which would not be for me, anyway.

I read all of the P. for men thinking how very sexist it was before realizing it was the many rules for the bhakhtus and not for the bhakhtis (these spellings probably wrong) who had their own, shorter set. Much of it is, to me, an interesting window into personal practices and hygiene. Speaking of which, my hairdresser has been a Buddhist for many years. (It's great to get him talking while I have my hair cut.... and my hair gets shorter, and shorter, and shorter.)

During the last year I've contacted several different sources who are more than happy to send me stuff... Sufi, Buddhist, Hindu, & Daoist. I also became friends with a Sikh filmmaker who grew up in India (he's there now). He's cut his hair but he's given me some insight into life in India. We've bombarded him with questions, asking about the practices he remembers. He reveres the history of Asia though I know he was happy he moved to California when he was a teen. I like to do internet research on names and practices and strange words that don't make sense -- that's how I got to the Patimokkha. Sometimes I find a book I need to buy -- the latest was from Killing the Buddha. I was 'specially interested when I started because one of the editors for an easy beginner's book is Mary Craig. That was my mother's name. It is gratifying to read that name in print, even though it's obviously not my mother... who's been dead 24 years and raised me as a heathen. The Pat-im-ok-k-ha...was funny to me. As soon as I saw it I read it like a license plate. My name is Pat and the word reads, to my eyes: "Pat, I am ok, 'k? Ha!"

Silly? Yes, I am, and also easily amused. I appreciate your and JLN's (waving) and NickFun's erudite posts. Buddhism is truly one of the great religions of mankind and is fascinating to me, but not one I'll likely join. I've never even been in a Buddhist temple.


Osso -- I agree that fundamentalism can come in many forms. Having gotten into trouble once or twice for not following standard practices in construction, it seems better to explore their methods, even if we don't ultimately use them. (Is that article you mentioned in a recent New Yorker?)

Piffka, it is in the Dec. 11th issue, paage 102. On its relevance to this thread, alas, there's not so much - I was doing word play re Aung and Aum, acting "happily". I'm fully ignorant about religion(s) in Burma. The article by John Lanchester is about the governmental structure and not religion; it describes his take on a new book on Burmese history, "The River of Los Footsteps", by Thant Myint-U.

Thanks, it must be here in the chaos somewhere.

bm. I'd love to see my wife's input in this discussion, but she just doesn't have the english skills. She was raised a Buddhist (Thailand).

I used to read the buddhist literature--back in the 60s and 70s--but I rarely do so now. As Pat has indicated, I think, the intercultural gap between ancient Asia and contemporary Western cultures is too great to expect much from an interpretive examination of the Buddhist texts. Frankly, in that regard I've come to depend for some time now on the reliable scholarship of Asherman.
My fierce "belief" is that Buddhism is a practice, far more than it is a doctrine (I'm confident that Ash would agree on this). As such, people who only READ about Buddhism but do not practice it (mainly in meditation) are like neurotics who read (about) psychology as a substitute for therapy.

Wow I wish I had as many varied people to talk about some of this stuff with as you Piffka, you must have some interesting conversations. This forum and it's hugely varied member list are of great benefit to me. I probably only know a minute handful of people, away from the internet, with which I could discuss some of these topics with, grateful for as many as I meet of course!

It was mentioned earlier about the goal of human life and the purpose of existence, I was wondering a while back about the purpose of religions. There was a topic, I forget the name, which drifted towards Islam and I was tempted to ask, "What's more important? Peace on earth or submission to God?". I guessed my question might have been glossed over or the answer would have implied submission to God leads to peace on earth. Anyway, the latter leads to many problems from my perspective, chiefly, who came up with the rules for submission to god again? Obviously it would have ended up going around in circles which is a shame but there you go.

Thinking about it more though, in terms of happiness and peace, how they're achievable and what they involve, also this Middle Way idea, the goal or purpose of religions needs to be achievable by all (I presume, talking in terms of religions that actually want to promote total peace on earth etc). With that said, also, with the ridiculously varied types of people, I wonder how many can achieve any kind of sufficient state of mind which would, if spread across the world, lead to a peace on earth type situation. Hope that makes sense. I guess this is a case of setting down a few ideas, in so doing, aiming for the stars and seeing where you go and what is achieved. The making of a goal being more important than any end product. Again, talking in terms of religions that want to promote these kinds of hopes, far fetched or far off as they may be.

I bought a book by Thich Nhat Hanh a while back (not round to reading it yet though, I've been buying more books than I have time to read lately...). Piffka, you seem to have enjoyed reading his stuff, any specific recommendations?

Hello, Ashers. Nice to meet you. Gratitude for what you've been given is always a good thing. I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I haven't read that much by Thich Nhat Hanh, certainly not every book that he's had published. Since you asked a question about submission, maybe you'd be interested in his Living Buddha, Living Christ -- but I didn't enjoy it that much or finish it. It felt a little out-of-date or else by the time I found it, I'd moved beyond worrying about Christian thoughts vs. Buddhism. I have a CD of TNH talking and that is probably my favorite thing. He has such a kind way of speaking. The transcriptions of his teachings on his plum village website are the next best thing. They are very interesting and that website is also where his Fourteen Precepts are described. In the transcripts he tells a lot of stories and he tries very hard to be clear in how he proceeds. They are naturally calming and peace-making. When I read them, I feel like I could be right there. Here's the webpage:

http://www.plumvillage.org/teachings/DharmaTalkTranscripts/TranscriptsOfSelectedDT.htm

It is asked, btw, that if I mention these teachings, I not change or edit them in any way, so I feel a little guilty giving you a brief of one I particularly like. It is about beauty and there is a sentence: "The best teacher is the teacher who can help you to see that there is a real teacher within yourself." I think that is a very important concept. However, Ashers, I am not a Buddhist, nor even a real student of Buddhism. Thich Nhat Hanh, has an interesting background and a beautiful soul. His kindness emanates from him, possibly in an even more gentle way than the good humor of the Dalai Lama. I'm naturally drawn to him. That he is able to forgive Americans for the cruel American War (what we refer to as The Vietnamese War) truly illustrates his higher level of being, imo.

As I mentioned earlier, I prefer the Daoist beliefs and their simpler message. You said something about what is more important, Peace on Earth or submission to God. I don't believe in the submission because I don't believe in a god, certainly not as defined by any of the Abraham-type religions and I'm a little shaky, if truth be told, about whether there was a real Buddha. (My film-maker friend is making a film right now that follows the Buddha's supposed path -- the Bodhi tree, the stream, his home, Deer Park. I look forward to seeing it... maybe I'll change my mind, but I doubt it.) I think that whatever runs the universe is way too big to be limited by speech, submission or naming words. To me, the path that you choose will always be a submission (to your god...if you will it... or to "my" amorphous, un-namable force) because you can't get away from that force, that way of being. It's like gravity. It isn't necessary to make up fairy tales to send you on your way. If you need a fairy tale to make it more interesting, well, that's a whole different reason for religion. The problem with believing fairy tales is that if any part of it isn't true, than the entire story becomes suspect.

To me, there is a true shining path (not the South American Shining Path) that leads you most quickly to peace and (yes) happiness. Some people naturally see it and can follow their path more easily than others. I've met people who choose their vegetables by holding a dowser over each one... others can quickly pick their vegetables because they don't care which ones they get.... and there are a few who naturally see a glow to the vegetables that are most right for them. No matter how, they get a good share of vegetables.

(Ashers, I have lived in one small place for so long that I have naturally met most of the interesting people in my little town. You are probably young and have a lot of time to find interesting people wherever you are. I am very lucky with a few of my contacts. It hasn't always been this good.)

Congratulations on your marriage, Wilso. I hadn't heard of this until now. I hope you are deliriously happy all your lives long.