interdependent co-arising (calling all buddhists)

I'm in love with your avatar.

She is a hottie.

We have to make sense of our senses... Strange

To realize that the Perceptual World is illusory is not, alone and in itself, enough to free one from it. When we dream we might realize that we're experiencing a dream, but find ourselves never-the-less drawn along in it. We remain terrified or happy according to the dream script. If we get punched in then nose, it hurts. Flying through the air, we feel the passage of air and the dream clouds taste just like cotton candy. Its all unreal, but we still experience it. The same is true with our waking world.

We realize its false, but never-the-less we have to live out the illusion. We experience pleasure, pain, and at every point the opportunity for suffering exists. Like in a lucid dream, we sentient beings do have a bit of control. Knowing from the Four Noble Truths the sources of suffering, we can avoid them to some extent and mitigate the suffering that arises. The Eight Fold Path, though originally intended mostly for the Community of Monks and Disciples, is a prescription for molding our behavior to reduce the effects of the Perceptual World. Other sutras in both the Theravada and Mahayana Schools provide other guidance to help us along the Path toward Enlightenment.

It is said that after Enlightenment the Buddha never slept again. I don't think that is meant to be taken literally. Enlightenment is sometimes described as waking up. The Awakened One. Once Enlightened and freed from the chains of Perception, never slipped back into the Illusory World's snares and continued to experience the bliss of his Enlightenment experience.

HIstorically we believe that many people, both Buddhists and others, experience to some degree the same Enlightenment as the Buddha. Sometimes in cultures not accustomed to dealing with Holy Madmen, they get locked up in asylums. Some might appear to have become catatonic, or return to the sensory world very frightened and disturbed. To suddenly experience the loss of ego and to be confronted by the limitless, undifferentiated Source can be terrifying. Others better prepared, or readied by nature for the Experience, feel completed, at peace and blissful. This is why we advise people who decide to go for the gold to find a Master, or to go into a monastery where they they can be properly guided.

Most Mahayana Buddhists are far too busy raising families, doing business, and living in the Perceptual World to practice the discipline most likely to end in the Enlightenment experience. Those who practice the Precepts as diligently as they can, will realize great benefits and will mitigate their own suffering and the suffering of those around them. Those who are Buddhists in name only, or who have a vastly mistaken idea of what Buddhism about may also contribute in toward mitigating suffering ... sort of like a baby learning to walk still spends most of their time on all fours. The Path from unawareness of the reality of the world to glimpses of Enlightenment might take a very long time. However, I think most people are always capable of the experience. For some in every generation Enlightenment as a Bodhisatva is attained, and we should honor them and listen as they preach the Doctrines ... no matter their School or Sect. The Dali Lama is such a Holy Man, and there are others less known scattered in monasteries around the world. Can't hear them? You have to listen.

Flushd says: "Because it is scary!

Nothing to hold on to,
nothing to save,
nothing to do,
nothing to be, "

What is scary is the persistent delusion of a self that needs to "be" and to be "saved from" extinction. When one realizes--when one SEES rather than believes or thinks--that there is only process, becoming, a flowing that one cannot hold onto (this includes things and the self) the scariness is, at least temporarily, gone. That is what we are liberated from, I think.

I sense, at times, that everything is interdependent, interconnected, codependent and continuallly arising and disappearing as a unity, and that it only appears to take turns occurring in the past, present and future.

I like the idea that there is only an eternal NOW. But this word, "now", as present, is problematical since it makes no sense without the notions of past and future.
We know that the future does not exist yet and the past no longer exists, yet what is the so-called existing present if not the non-existent future becoming the non-existent past. Everything is empty flow. And that is freedom. I prefer to sit in profound watchful ignorance.

Asherman, may I disagree with you? I am a Mahayana Buddhist. More specifically, I am a Nichiren Buddhist practicing with the Soka Gakkai. Enlightenment is not to be found apart from this mundane world. We cannot escape the cycles of birth, old age, sickness and death and we will never escape the cycle of life and death but we can free ourselves from the suffering associated with them.

Though I disagree with your theology, what does that matter? You will continue what works for you, and that is enough. Far more important is that Buddhism and Western Culture merge without undue loss on either side. The essentials (The Four Nobel Truths, The Eight-Fold Path, The Middle Way, and the mitigation of suffering, etc.) only need find a fertile ground for Buddhism to gain ground on the Abrahamic religions.

It's good to read your words again, Asherman & JLN. I'm sorry to hear that there's been something amiss with Nathalie. I'd like to say that over the years you two have given me a much better understanding of Buddhism. I liked what you said about being a householder, Ash. It sounds similar to the concept as it was introduced to me in Hinduism.

What do you think about "Righteous Anger"? Is there ever a purpose or is it fencing with nothingness? I know that the D. lama says even he feels anger. He goes on to say that he tries to divide his mind into two parts, the second being to observe the anger in the first. I suppose we need to feel some compassion for ourselves for not being able to remain within the sea of inner calm and then it is more possible to feel compassion for the source of the irritation.

I wonder if you agree with him, (the D.L.) that our purpose in life to attain happiness?

May I comment? Anger is one of the ten worlds and cannot nor should be eliminated from our lives. However, self-righteous anger is destructive whereas anger against injustic and causes of suffering are beneficial.

I wonder if His Holiness actually has said, "our purpose in life is to attain happiness". Seeking happiness gives rise to unhappiness, suffering and ego attachments. Better to strive for tranquil serenity, free of both suffering and happiness. That's another of the aspects of the "Middle Way".

I don't doubt in the least that the Dali Lama feels occasionally angry, and from time to times is in conflict with thought, word and behavior that he knows is to be better. That's one of the consequences of living in the Perceptual World. We all fall short of perfection in practice, and as a consequence we contribute to suffering. Suffering can't easily be totally escaped, even by the best of us. Detached observation of one's emotions, words and behavior is a pretty good way to deal with those snares. On the other hand, the conquest of suffering is found in the abandonment of duality, of discrimination between states that are ultimately illusory. I think it better to acknowledge our stumble without carrying it around with us as some sort of heavy guilt. We accept the imperfection of the Perceptual World, and get back to our practices without further entanglements.

Ultimately there is no such thing as "righteous anger"; there is only a blind emotional response to our precious little egos. We regard ourselves as having a "real self", and that Self desires escape from suffering. If only we had/possessed X, our suffering would vanish. This leads to pursuit of excesses. We become jealous, of others. We become angry when "our" desires are frustrated and the world doesn't dance to our tune. We are caught in change and time that is beyond our control, and our disappointments surface as impatience and anger. So in our deluded state, we are filled momentarily with a flash of emotion called anger. What is it we are angry with? Our selves, which do not exist? With "otherness" that also is only a phantom?

Our parents and our society demand that we learn self-control. A crying infant is demanding that their "self" be attended to. Feed me! Change my diapers! Comfort me with the warmth of thy breast and a pleasant lullaby. By the time we go off to school, crying jags are no longer acceptable. We learn to control our hungers, our thirsts and our frustrations of "existing" in a world that takes little note of us. We learn to conform to the social mores of our culture. We learn which fork to use so that we fit into the theater of dinner parties. All the while, the illusory "Self" is yearning to be the center of everything. We find ways to deal with loneliness and being mortal, and all the while the "Self" abides. Fear, Lust, Greed, and Anger are all just varied ways of dealing with the suffering that sentient beings are heir to.

I disagree with Nick's comment that we should not attempt to banish anger from our lives. There is no difference between "self-righteous anger" and justifiable (?) anger; both are emotional expressions of the "Self" that lies at the heart of the Perceptual world of multiplicity. Anger, like fear, lust and greed, feeds and nourishes the illusory Self, which in turn becomes further attached to the sensory world.

(Hmmm, can't get that URL to post as I'd like, but there it is if you want to look.)

This was an interview from 2001, Asherman. It does seem like a pretty clear reply to me and he did write a book, you know, about attaining happiness. I checked Amazon and, maybe you'll laugh, he is actually quoted as saying "I believe that the very purpose of our life is to seek happiness..."

(He also speaks about anger in the interview noted above, but I won't copy that.) Regarding happiness, his words from the interview are in indigo:

What is the goal of human life? What are we born to achieve?
To be happy!

What is the purpose of existence?
Happiness.

Happiness for others or ourselves?
Take the example of a plant. What is the goal of its existence?

Service to others?
May be the plant just is! It doesn't have fixed goals. It just grows. The plant has no mind, so to speak. Animals also seem to have happiness as their aim.

Nature never remains static; growth is essential for a human being. Why do we always say 'Happy Birthday' and never 'Happy Deathday'? Because we don't want to see the end. The human mind is attracted to growth, beginning and freshness. Compassion thus is the force of growth and development while anger is destruction.

If the goal of life is happiness, where does nirvana fit in?
Now you are talking about another level. At the first level, you need to practice basic human values. Then, you can talk of nirvana, which means permanent cessation of suffering. So we come back to happiness!

Can't disagree with that. I think the problem is that the word happiness may not mean the same thing to everyone. Is a plant happy? No, it just is, and that is the "happiness" that His Holiness is talking about. The importance that compassion plays in allieviating suffering is a positive thing, while anger increases the amount of suffering and is a negative thing. One mitigates and the other encreases suffering.

The Dali Lama's comment at the end of your posting is similar to a point I've made above, and often over a long period of time. With Enlightenment, suffering is conquered and all suffering ceases ... and that we agree is "happiness" unsullied by duality. I guess that I just don't much like using the term "happiness" as interchangaqble with the Ultimate Reality ... it just IS, and it is unstained by the falseness of Self or suffering.

I don't believe there is much, if any, difference between what I've said above on anger and the views of His Holiness.

I hate to say it but the Dalai Lama frequently disappoints me. He seems to be very oriented to the needs of the west, an orientation that inspires him to talk to us in a manner that we can relate to and appreciate. As the leader of a (theocratic) government in exile he is beholding for money (books and lectures) and sanctuary on the good will of the West. As such, he seems hesitant to call upon us to face the difficult realities our egos' deny.
No doubt he is an enlightened person (because of his training not his birth).
To me, man's enlightened goal/purpose is not to be happy; it is to transcend the attachments to happiness and the avoidance of pain. The realization of the nature of one's true self is the goal. This, it seems to me involves the realization of the unity of the Univierse (observable and all else). In this perspective we realize that when we die we do not become NOTHING; we become EVERYTHING. But I must modify that. We are already everything but fail to appreciate that because of our ego delusion/attachment.

True happiness is definitely what Buddhism teaches. It is an indestructible life condition that cannot be swayed by environmental influences. It is a true understanding of life at its depths. It is not simply a condition of peaceful serenity. It is a dynamic condition.

Contrary to Asherman's assertions, even plants have the Buddha nature. Plants have the same conditions of life as all other living beings though they may not be aware.

One way that Buddhism explains life is through a concept known as "the ten worlds." These are ten states or conditions of life that we experience within ourselves and are then manifested throughout all aspects of our lives. Each of us possesses the potential for all ten, and we shift from one to another at any moment, according to our interaction with the environment. That is, at each moment, one of the ten worlds is being manifested and the other nine are dormant. From lowest to highest, they are:

Hell -- This is a state of suffering and despair, in which we perceive we have no freedom of action. It is characterized by the impulse to destroy ourselves and everything around us.

Hunger -- Hunger is the state of being controlled by insatiable desire for money, power, status, or whatever. While desires are inherent in any of the ten worlds, in this state we are at the mercy of our cravings and cannot control them.

Animality -- In this state, we are ruled by instinct. We exhibit neither reason nor moral sense nor the ability to make long-range judgments. In the world of Animality, we operate by the law of the jungle, so to speak. We will not hesitate to take advantage of those weaker than ourselves and fawn on those who are stronger.

Anger -- In this next state, awareness of ego emerges, but it is a selfish, greedy, distorted ego, determined to best others at all costs and seeing everything as a potential threat to itself. In this state we value only ourselves and tend to hold others in contempt. We are strongly attached to the idea of our own superiority and cannot bear to admit that anyone exceeds us in anything.

Humanity (also called Tranquillity) -- This is a flat, passive state of life, from which we can easily shift into the lower four worlds. While we may generally behave in a humane fashion in this state, we are highly vulnerable to strong external influences.

Heaven (or Rapture) -- This is a state of intense joy stemming, for example, from the fulfillment of some desire, a sense of physical well-being, or inner contentment. Though intense, the joy experienced in this state is short-lived and also vulnerable to external influences.

The six states from Hell to Heaven are called the six paths or six lower worlds. They have in common the fact that their emergence or disappearance is governed by external circumstances. Take the example of a man obsessed by the desire to find someone to love him (Hunger). When he at last does meet that person, he feels ecstatic and fulfilled (Heaven). By and by, potential rivals appear on the scene, and he is seized by jealousy (Anger). Eventually, his possessiveness drives his loved one away. Crushed by despair (Hell), he feels life is no longer worth living. In this way, many of us spend time shuttling back and forth among the six paths without ever realizing we are being controlled by our reactions to the environment. Any happiness or satisfaction to be gained in these states depends totally upon circumstances and is therefore transient and subject to change.

In these six lower worlds, we base our entire happiness, indeed our whole identity, on externals.

The next two states, Learning and Realization, come about when we recognize that everything experienced in the six paths is impermanent, and we begin to seek some lasting truth. These two states plus the next two, Bodhisattva and Buddhahood, are together called the four noble worlds. Unlike the six paths, which are passive reactions to the environment, these four higher states are achieved through deliberate effort.

Learning -- In this state, we seek the truth through the teachings or experience of others.

Realization -- This state is similar to Learning, except that we seek the truth not through others' teachings but through our own direct perception of the world.

Learning and Realization are together called the "two vehicles." Having realized the impermanence of things, people in these states have won a measure of independence and are no longer prisoner to their own reactions as in the six paths. However, they often tend to be contemptuous of people in the six paths who have not yet reached this understanding. In addition, their search for truth is primarily self-oriented, so there is a great potential for egotism in these two states; and they may become satisfied with their progress without discovering the highest potential of human life in the ninth and tenth worlds.

Bodhisattva -- Bodhisattvas are those who aspire to achieve enlightenment and at the same time are equally determined to enable all other beings to do the same. Conscious of the bonds that link us to all others, in this state we realize that any happiness we alone enjoy is incomplete, and we devote ourselves to alleviating others' suffering. Those in this state find their greatest satisfaction in altruistic behavior.

The states from Hell to Bodhisattva are collectively termed "the nine worlds." This expression is often used in contrast to the tenth world, the enlightened state of Buddhahood.

Buddhahood -- Buddhahood is a dynamic state that is difficult to describe. We can partially describe it as a state of perfect freedom, in which we are enlightened to the ultimate truth of life. It is characterized by infinite compassion and boundless wisdom. In this state, we can resolve harmoniously what appear from the standpoint of the nine worlds to be insoluble contradictions. A Buddhist sutra describes the attributes of the Buddha's life as a true self, perfect freedom from karmic bonds throughout eternity, a life purified of illusion, and absolute happiness. Also, the state of Buddhahood is physically expressed in the Bodhisattva Way or actions of a Bodhisattva.

Disappointed by the DL? Just for the record, that interview I quoted happened in New Delhi for an Indian magazine. The questions were asked by Parveen Chopra and Shawti Chopra who are both from India and based in Mumbai and New Delhi, respectively. It's a stretch to call their slant "Western" despite the interview taking place in English. I suppose you could say that the D. Lama has become so tainted by his connections with the west that wherever he goes, he's unwilling to discuss "true" Buddhism... but I don't think so. He appears to be his own person, not changing to fit the audience.

My opinion, which I now think none of you Buddhists will agree with, is that the clear, white-light happiness of a good heart is indeed the one best goal to work to attain. Thich Nhat Hanh for example, while talking about the Buddha in hell, quoted one of the Buddha's companions as saying: ""My friend (The Buddha) was right, you don't have a heart. You can only create suffering for yourself and for other people. I don't think that you are a happy person." You can also read his quote in my signature about finding joy in the moment. It seems a simple goal and attainable IF you allow yourself to relax and love.

In the Dao De Jing it says (chapter 16):

When you realize where you come from,
you naturally become tolerant,
disinterested, amused,
kindhearted as a grandmother,
dignified as a king.

That is the happiness which I think is the goal... the same that Hanh and the Dalai Lama extol.

Ahhhh, I see that NickFun has posted while I've been writing. Very interesting.

Nick Fun and JLN have posted about this early on... (oh, I am such a dolt!) Funny... I say Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo a lot. I didn't realize it was a Nichiren chant, didn't think about it at all. It was taught to me in college and has such a great rhythm for walking. ... it depends on how you define happiness?

Friday Jun 2003


and JLN said:

Actually, Pifka, I haven't any real problem with "a clear white light of a good heart is the best goal to work toward". My sole caveat is that the word "happiness" can so easily be misunderstood, and thereby perpetuate duality.

Contrary to what many believe, there is no magic ... not even in ritual or chanting one mantra or another. They do serve to focus the mind and fill it so that errant thoughts are mostly excluded. That is useful, but too often becomes a crutch that complicates the Path. BTW, that is one of the great drawbacks to the Tantric forms headed by His Holiness.

Nick's theology clearly reflects the modern Soka Gykai teachings, which many regard as a very radical Nichiren sect. I hold that everything in the Perceptual World, all of its multiplicity, is equally illusory and as such springs from Ultimate Reality, that same term the Buddha Nature. So Nick is sorta right, though it takes us back to the illusive meaning of happiness. Only sentient beings, so far as we know, are capable of suffering. Sentient beings, though illusory, are not incapable of transcending suffering by Awakening. The Buddha, and others have experienced Enlightenment and drawn us a road-map that can free us from the toils of illusion.

Of course, I thoroughly endorse and agree with your quotation from JL ... but then we share Bodhidarma's theology. Also, your Tao Te Ching quotation nicely illustrates why the Chinese believed that Buddhism was a further explication of Philosophical Taoism.

Excellent. Thanks, Asherman. Interesting that there are these variations of Buddhism. I was reading Hanh's 14 Precepts... so much simpler than the patimokkha as translated from the Pali that I'd read earlier.

Piffka, thanks for retrieving that old statement of mine.

Pifka, congratulations on reading Theravada sutras. These are the earliest transcriptions of the historical Buddha's teaching. I hope that from time to time you will favor us by giving a relevant passage appropriate to the conversation. I know that can sometimes be a difficult thing to do because of the archaic differences in style and referents. To get the point sometimes it is necessary to consider the whole, rather than a part to get a proper sense of what was meant. The early sutras also contain seemingly endless lists that sometimes are cumulative and at other times is a "mere" string of referents that was meaningful and easily understood a thousand years ago. Oh well, I've long been fond of the wisdom found there and well worth the extra effort.

Theravada is the foundations of our religion. Mahayana does not invalidate, but gives us the result of Buddhist thought, reasoning and experience of wise Buddhists. Mahayana writings not only make it easier for householders to be active, practicing Buddhists, and a theological expression more accessible to the ordinary person. The differences we see today in the major Buddhist divisions are the result of the language, culture, of the Weltanschauung what became Buddhist lands. Within the major divisions of Buddhism there are as many subordinate sects as Christianity. The great majority of Buddhists in Asia are no more "religious" or "non-religous" as those in America or Europe. Local traditions and superstitions are commonly interwoven into more mainstream Schools, like Tantric, Pure Land, Zen and others). Culturally nice and interesting, but only tangential from the Buddhism practiced by Monks and Clergy where actual knowledge of Buddhist theology is far better. Then there is a smaller number of those who seriously practice Buddhsim who attain a level of understanding where the sutras are self-evident and can be at experienced directly. Generally, the Enlightenment experience seems to occur amongst this latter group most often. Even more astonishing is that on occasion, the Enlightenment experience suddenly just happens even to people who never heard of Buddhsim in the first place. For whatever else it is, the Experiential World is interesting.

Oh well .......